Comments on: From “Nehru Growth” to Productivity Surge http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/ Issues & insights Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:45:12 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: GGK http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-301 GGK Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:11:37 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-301 Regarding IIT I have the following 2 points to make. <b> The Hype: </b> Most IIT graduates move to the US and get higher education. A big chunk of the respect should also go to those institutions of higher learning from which they obtained their Phds and MBAs also. <b> The Government subsidy: </b> I dont see why the government should subsidize technical eduction to those who come from middle class background and under normal market condition will be able to get a loan. A lot of kids from Bhilai, Chattisgarh attended IIT I lived there till I left for US when i was 15 year old. I was a middle class indian'. We had a TV. I had used a computer a few times. Our school was one of the few schools in the state of Madhya pradesh(before chattisgarh) which had computers. I went to a Delhi Public School. Which was in reality a private school.. which got subsidies from public sector Bhilai Steel Plant. I know of about 40 kids who got admitted to IIT/RECs who went to school with me. All these kids were not the indians who were in dire poverty. Their parents invested in them. They manipulated a public sector entity Bhilai Steel Plant to provide subsidies to a private school so that their children can get better education. Well what about those from the state of chattisgarh who went to the government schools or poorer private schools? Is the system fair? There is a class of indians who have milked the Indian public sector for themselves and their kids... Its the kids of these parents who make up the largest %age of IIT/REC attendees. IMNHO the government should NOT provide subsidies for undergraduate education at IIT/REC but should focus on providing a solid K-12 education all accross India. The market forces will make sure India will have enough people being able to afford IIT and REC education in the short run. In the long run IIT and other institutions can be even more picky because the pool of qualified entrants will be larger. Regarding IIT I have the following 2 points to make.

The Hype:
Most IIT graduates move to the US and get higher education.
A big chunk of the respect should also go to those institutions of higher learning from which they obtained their Phds and MBAs also.

The Government subsidy:
I dont see why the government should subsidize technical eduction to those who come from middle class background and under normal market condition will be able to get a loan.
A lot of kids from Bhilai, Chattisgarh attended IIT
I lived there till I left for US when i was 15 year old. I was a middle class indian’. We had a TV. I had used a computer a few times. Our school was one of the few schools in the state of Madhya pradesh(before chattisgarh) which had computers. I went to a Delhi Public School. Which was in reality a private school.. which got subsidies from public sector Bhilai Steel Plant. I know of about 40 kids who got admitted to IIT/RECs who went to school with me. All these kids were not the indians who were in dire poverty. Their parents invested in them. They manipulated a public sector entity Bhilai Steel Plant to provide subsidies to a private school so that their children can get better education.

Well what about those from the state of chattisgarh who went to the government schools or poorer private schools?
Is the system fair?
There is a class of indians who have milked the Indian public sector for themselves and their kids… Its the kids of these parents who make up the largest %age of IIT/REC attendees.

IMNHO the government should NOT provide subsidies for undergraduate education at IIT/REC but should focus on providing a solid K-12 education all accross India.
The market forces will make sure India will have enough people being able to afford IIT and REC education in the short run.
In the long run IIT and other institutions can be even more picky because the pool of qualified entrants will be larger.

]]> By: GGK http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-300 GGK Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:44:02 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-300 I dislike the term hindu rate of growth, but it wasnt as bad as things were preceding it. Like Atanu himself points out that the christian rate of growth was negative and this was a positive development. Even the like of Manmohan, Stephen Cohen etc concede that a central planning and the nehruvian efforts of the era were needed in late 1940's till the 60's. Manmohan credits that era as having created a class of people who can work on bigger challenge. Cohen agues that starting the 1965 India should have shifted resouces into education and public infrastructure and let private sector take over industries. Most economist of the era adviced given to India follow the path that it was following. Yep Even the official American advice was to continue with the model. Milton Friedman was probably the only one who had voiced concern over the excessive licensing and production quotas created with this issue. But that was another America in terms of economic policy. The mistake it appears in retrospect was not made in nehru era but the time period following it. The policy had served its usefulness by then and India needed indeed missed the boat by not changing. Honestly its too noisy to see what direction india will take at present. I am hoping that the government shifts all the infrastructure development relating to K-12 education, health (urban sanitation), transportation etc and not get into crap like employment gaurentee etc. I dislike the term hindu rate of growth, but it wasnt as bad as things were preceding it. Like Atanu himself points out that the christian rate of growth was negative and this was a positive development.
Even the like of Manmohan, Stephen Cohen etc concede that a central planning and the nehruvian efforts of the era were needed in late 1940’s till the 60’s.
Manmohan credits that era as having created a class of people who can work on bigger challenge.
Cohen agues that starting the 1965 India should have shifted resouces into education and public infrastructure and let private sector take over industries.
Most economist of the era adviced given to India follow the path that it was following. Yep Even the official American advice was to continue with the model. Milton Friedman was probably the only one who had voiced concern over the excessive licensing and production quotas created with this issue.
But that was another America in terms of economic policy.
The mistake it appears in retrospect was not made in nehru era but the time period following it. The policy had served its usefulness by then and India needed indeed missed the boat by not changing.
Honestly its too noisy to see what direction india will take at present. I am hoping that the government shifts all the infrastructure development relating to K-12 education, health (urban sanitation), transportation etc and not get into crap like employment gaurentee etc.

]]> By: iu http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-299 iu Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:22:33 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-299 Atanu, On re-reading your previous comment, I realize that you mention two kinds of selection biases. The university's bias ("If out of 200,000, you get to select the top 2 percent, you already have an advantage") to which I responded to. And, my selection bias that may skew my conclusions since I am looking at the top strata of IIT graduates. That could very well be the case. Most students I have encountered, however, are from the top of their respective (IIT or top-tier American school) classes. So, I am not sure if my selection bias would be much of a factor. I'd, of course, be interested to see the results of a scientific comparison. Atanu,

On re-reading your previous comment, I realize that you mention two kinds of selection biases. The university’s bias (”If out of 200,000, you get to select the top 2 percent, you already have an advantage”) to which I responded to.

And, my selection bias that may skew my conclusions since I am looking at the top strata of IIT graduates. That could very well be the case. Most students I have encountered, however, are from the top of their respective (IIT or top-tier American school) classes. So, I am not sure if my selection bias would be much of a factor. I’d, of course, be interested to see the results of a scientific comparison.

]]> By: iu http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-297 iu Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:35:19 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-297 Atanu, I agree with almost all the points you make. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion: "Comparing the average graduate from US universities with the average IIT graduate in the US is not fair because of sample selection bais." Two points: I was comparing graduates from elite US universities to IITians. Second, I don't think we should normalize for selection bias while comparing universities or their graduates. If we did that, then most rankings would become meaningless. Compare a top-tier school to a middle-of-the-range school. The criteria used in any academic ranking directly reflect that selection bias (as it should) since the top-tier school is more choosy about its professors and students. "I found [IIT grads] to be hardworking intelligent narrowly-focused self-absorbed money-grubbing bores." You almost say that as if it's a bad thing :) Atanu,

I agree with almost all the points you make. I don’t, however, agree with your conclusion:

“Comparing the average graduate from US universities with the average IIT graduate in the US is not fair because of sample selection bais.”

Two points: I was comparing graduates from elite US universities to IITians. Second, I don’t think we should normalize for selection bias while comparing universities or their graduates. If we did that, then most rankings would become meaningless. Compare a top-tier school to a middle-of-the-range school. The criteria used in any academic ranking directly reflect that selection bias (as it should) since the top-tier school is more choosy about its professors and students.

“I found [IIT grads] to be hardworking intelligent narrowly-focused self-absorbed money-grubbing bores.”

You almost say that as if it’s a bad thing :)

]]> By: Mani Pulimood http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-294 Mani Pulimood Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:19:50 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-294 Nobel Prize and Research Publications It will take a while before our boys get there to be ranked in the world....I wonder if it has a correlation to our performance in the Olympics as well?? Nobel Prize and Research Publications

It will take a while before our boys get there to be ranked in the world….I wonder if it has a correlation to our performance in the Olympics as well??

]]> By: Mani Pulimood http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-293 Mani Pulimood Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:00:25 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-293 Best and Brainiest....American Companies love them Interesting perspective on IIT Graduates....Kids who dont get their choice in IIT go to Ivy League Schools http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/19/60minutes/main559476.shtml Best and Brainiest….American Companies love them

Interesting perspective on IIT Graduates….Kids who dont get their choice in IIT go to Ivy League Schools

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/19/60minutes/main559476.shtml

]]> By: Mani Pulimood http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-292 Mani Pulimood Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:40:33 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-292 The IITs are only 50 years old...lets give them some credit for the progress made...what do you see their ranking to be 100 years from now?? The IITs are only 50 years old…lets give them some credit for the progress made…what do you see their ranking to be 100 years from now??

]]> By: Mani Pulimood http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-291 Mani Pulimood Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:23:55 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-291 Check this out: http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/scitech/sci.overall.html These are the Asian university rankings for science and tech schools. Check this out:

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/features/universities2000/scitech/sci.overall.html

These are the Asian university rankings for science and tech schools.

]]> By: Atanu Dey http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-290 Atanu Dey Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:35:40 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-290 IU, given a sufficiently narrow definition of the area of excellence, IIT can be argued to be the best. Let's say that if one defines a university to be one where not only engineering but science and the humanities are taught and which awards a large number of very high quality PhDs and which does fundamental research and publishes ground-breaking work, then of course IITs cannot compete. So we don't appear to disagree on the point that in a global ranking of universities, IITs rank in the 300 or 400s depending on who is doing the ranking. My contention is that India is the largest democracy, soon to be the country with the largest population, an IT superpower grabbing food out of the mouths of programmers in the Silicon Valley, a developed country (according to the president of the country), and none of our universities make it to the top of global rankings. IITs don't of course for reasons that they are just undergrad technical colleges. What explains the extraordinary success of IIT grads, especially in the US? One word: competition. If out of 200,000, you get to select the top 2 percent, you already have an advantage. Then put the selected few under immense pressure to compete amongst themselves. Then of that bunch, take the top half and ship them to the US. Then of that, the top 10 percent get on the fast track and of that we have the 50 which includes names such as Vinod and Victor and Rajat and so on. Comparing the average graduate from US universities with the average IIT graduate in the US is not fair because of sample selection bais. Having said that, I know a lot of IIT grads. Some of my best friends are IIT grads. I lived and worked with them in the US. I found them to be hardworking intelligent narrowly-focused self-absorbed money-grubbing bores. Of course, this is a random sample with its own baises. But there you have it. IU, given a sufficiently narrow definition of the area of excellence, IIT can be argued to be the best. Let’s say that if one defines a university to be one where not only engineering but science and the humanities are taught and which awards a large number of very high quality PhDs and which does fundamental research and publishes ground-breaking work, then of course IITs cannot compete. So we don’t appear to disagree on the point that in a global ranking of universities, IITs rank in the 300 or 400s depending on who is doing the ranking.

My contention is that India is the largest democracy, soon to be the country with the largest population, an IT superpower grabbing food out of the mouths of programmers in the Silicon Valley, a developed country (according to the president of the country), and none of our universities make it to the top of global rankings. IITs don’t of course for reasons that they are just undergrad technical colleges.

What explains the extraordinary success of IIT grads, especially in the US? One word: competition. If out of 200,000, you get to select the top 2 percent, you already have an advantage. Then put the selected few under immense pressure to compete amongst themselves. Then of that bunch, take the top half and ship them to the US. Then of that, the top 10 percent get on the fast track and of that we have the 50 which includes names such as Vinod and Victor and Rajat and so on.

Comparing the average graduate from US universities with the average IIT graduate in the US is not fair because of sample selection bais.

Having said that, I know a lot of IIT grads. Some of my best friends are IIT grads. I lived and worked with them in the US. I found them to be hardworking intelligent narrowly-focused self-absorbed money-grubbing bores. Of course, this is a random sample with its own baises. But there you have it.

]]> By: iu http://indianeconomy.org/2005/09/16/from-%e2%80%9cnehru-growth%e2%80%9d-to-productivity-surge/comment-page-1/#comment-288 iu Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:50:56 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/?p=78#comment-288 “IITs are world class belongs to the category I call Friedmanism" I disagree. I believe that IITs excel specifically as an undergraduate technical institution. Yes, you cannot favorably compare an IIT with a world-class undergraduate school. But compare IITs to engineering institutes and they, in my opinion, rank very high. I've interacted with a large number of undergraduates from top American schools and the IITs. As far as technical knowledge and proficiency go, I find most IITians to be better than their American counterparts.* This is purely subjective, of course, and a generalization. Individual results may differ, YMMV, and all that. * I don't think this is success "of a few" from the institute. I have observed that IIT graduates have a reasonably consistent level of competency. “IITs are world class belongs to the category I call Friedmanism”

I disagree. I believe that IITs excel specifically as an undergraduate technical institution. Yes, you cannot favorably compare an IIT with a world-class undergraduate school. But compare IITs to engineering institutes and they, in my opinion, rank very high. I’ve interacted with a large number of undergraduates from top American schools and the IITs. As far as technical knowledge and proficiency go, I find most IITians to be better than their American counterparts.* This is purely subjective, of course, and a generalization. Individual results may differ, YMMV, and all that.

* I don’t think this is success “of a few” from the institute. I have observed that IIT graduates have a reasonably consistent level of competency.

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