Comments on: The Kidnapping Of India http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/ Issues & insights Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:00:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: F.S. http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-6425 F.S. Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:15:44 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-6425 Hi Amit, Indeed, now released from KGB shackles, far more important are future policies, than how past policies occurred. Certainly one need not regress the origins of lost personal and economic freedoms to find tractable solutions to problems of the day. I would however like to understand better the relationship between the Ms. Gandhi’s hierarchical government organization, and effects on current economic policies by patriarchal social systems. Does female leadership “increase” the average Indian woman’s feeling of personal identification to government and hope for improvement, and, what might be the consequences to personal and constituent level ideologies if change to male leadership happened. Hi Amit,
Indeed, now released from KGB shackles, far more important are future policies, than how past policies occurred. Certainly one need not regress the origins of lost personal and economic freedoms to find tractable solutions to problems of the day. I would however like to understand better the relationship between the Ms. Gandhi’s hierarchical government organization, and effects on current economic policies by patriarchal social systems. Does female leadership “increase” the average Indian woman’s feeling of personal identification to government and hope for improvement, and, what might be the consequences to personal and constituent level ideologies if change to male leadership happened.

]]> By: The Acorn » More damage than the KGB could ever do (2) http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-404 The Acorn » More damage than the KGB could ever do (2) Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:14:32 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-404 [...] wn lives so intimately, economics is boring, a spy thriller is much more fun. [India Uncut/IEB] [...] […] wn lives so intimately, economics is boring, a spy thriller is much more fun. [India Uncut/IEB]

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]]> By: DesiPundit » The Kidnapping Of India http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-403 DesiPundit » The Kidnapping Of India Wed, 05 Oct 2005 19:47:01 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-403 [...] pping Of India Patrix on 10.05.05 in Economics Amit Varma has an excellent article on misguided accusations about India’s real prob [...] […] pping Of India

Patrix on 10.05.05 in Economics

Amit Varma has an excellent article on misguided accusations about India’s real prob […]

]]> By: Amit Varma http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-402 Amit Varma Wed, 05 Oct 2005 18:17:32 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-402 Michael, good points, both. But in both cases, you assume that we're taking solely about the past, things that <i>were</i> done and <i>why</i> they were done. If that were so, then from a historical point of view, and to make sure that history does not rhyme or repeat, the "why" would have a reasonable degree of importance as compared to the "what." But, as it happens, the "why" is in the distant past and the "what" is in the present, and is set to continue. And <i>that's</i> what shocks me. Why even bother to discuss the motive for a crime when you don't accept that there was a crime at all, and when you allow it to continue? In that sense, my analogy of the kidnapping was apt. State controls on enterprise (or strangling enterprise, as is more accurate) may not have seemed a crime decades ago, when its outcome may not have been understood by our wise central planners; but it is now, when we have seen all the harm that it does. And the KGB has been dead for a decade-and-a-half. Michael, good points, both. But in both cases, you assume that we’re taking solely about the past, things that were done and why they were done. If that were so, then from a historical point of view, and to make sure that history does not rhyme or repeat, the “why” would have a reasonable degree of importance as compared to the “what.”

But, as it happens, the “why” is in the distant past and the “what” is in the present, and is set to continue. And that’s what shocks me. Why even bother to discuss the motive for a crime when you don’t accept that there was a crime at all, and when you allow it to continue? In that sense, my analogy of the kidnapping was apt. State controls on enterprise (or strangling enterprise, as is more accurate) may not have seemed a crime decades ago, when its outcome may not have been understood by our wise central planners; but it is now, when we have seen all the harm that it does. And the KGB has been dead for a decade-and-a-half.

]]> By: Michael H. http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-401 Michael H. Wed, 05 Oct 2005 16:01:05 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-401 Hi Amit As I understand it, you are saying that the crimes assoiciated with accepting bribes from the KGB are tangential and largely irrelevant to the larger crimes of socialism. I'm not so sure I agree. I think they might be indicative of a fundamental problem with socialism that apologists for Socialism ignore: putting all of the power in the hands of a few creates the motive and the opportunity for corruption. Also, there is another angle to consider. Kidnapping is a crime and the motive is irrelevant. But creating a stupid economic system is not a crime, and reasonable people might say that while the outcome was unfortunate the motive was pure and perhaps with some more "luck" it would have worked and maybe we'll be luckier next time. The KGB episode shows that Indian socialists' motives were not pure and it failure was inevitable. Motives can be important in judging the virtue of actions that have not been already outlawed. Hi Amit
As I understand it, you are saying that the crimes assoiciated with accepting bribes from the KGB are tangential and largely irrelevant to the larger crimes of socialism. I’m not so sure I agree. I think they might be indicative of a fundamental problem with socialism that apologists for Socialism ignore: putting all of the power in the hands of a few creates the motive and the opportunity for corruption.

Also, there is another angle to consider. Kidnapping is a crime and the motive is irrelevant. But creating a stupid economic system is not a crime, and reasonable people might say that while the outcome was unfortunate the motive was pure and perhaps with some more “luck” it would have worked and maybe we’ll be luckier next time. The KGB episode shows that Indian socialists’ motives were not pure and it failure was inevitable. Motives can be important in judging the virtue of actions that have not been already outlawed.

]]> By: Amit Varma http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-400 Amit Varma Wed, 05 Oct 2005 14:13:47 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-400 Dilip, the "most basic needs like water, electricity, primary education, health care etc are lacking" <i>because</i> of the economic freedoms that have been stripped away. If the state hadn't shackled industry, we'd have far more employment and far less poverty in the country. The policies of Indira Gandhi have actually caused millions of needless deaths and much suffering. And that's the crux of my article: we jump to show outrage at the KGB revelations, but continue to support the policies that have crippled our country. Dilip, the “most basic needs like water, electricity, primary education, health care etc are lacking” because of the economic freedoms that have been stripped away. If the state hadn’t shackled industry, we’d have far more employment and far less poverty in the country. The policies of Indira Gandhi have actually caused millions of needless deaths and much suffering. And that’s the crux of my article: we jump to show outrage at the KGB revelations, but continue to support the policies that have crippled our country.

]]> By: Dilip http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-399 Dilip Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:17:39 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2005/10/05/the-kidnapping-of-india/#comment-399 Hi Amit, very nice article offering nuggets of information on Mrs.Gandhi's rule. Very informative. One point you have raised is that a molehill of intent isn't as significant as the mountain of action and that India should let go of the intent and concetrate on undoing to action. Though I agree there with you in principle I have a reservation on letting go of the intent - understanding the intent or the "why" is important too. Not as important as concentrating on recovering from many of the actions of those days that are still with us. The "Why" is important because it fills in the gaps and gives us the big picture. This is the reason why commissions/enquiries are set up in countries all over the world (apart from task forces that take corrective action on the ground) - to learn the "why" and see what we can learn from it. Though I suspect that Advani's branding of it has more to it than patriotic fervor and this is supported by the fact that his party didn't do much about it either. Another point you have made is that the common man in India doesn't care if those freedoms that were stripped from him haven't been restored. Though this is true, don't you think that is a consequence of the fact that most basic needs like water, electricity, primary education, health care etc are lacking in many if not most parts of India that these form the greatest concerns to the common man. Needs that are lower in the hierarchy haven't been met as yet and this totally blinds him/her to broader issues such as economics. I am not trying to discount the importance or relevance of economics in our lives but just trying explain the apparent apathy towards it by the common man. Hi Amit,
very nice article offering nuggets of information on Mrs.Gandhi’s rule. Very informative. One point you have raised is that a molehill of intent isn’t as significant as the mountain of action and that India should let go of the intent and concetrate on undoing to action. Though I agree there with you in principle I have a reservation on letting go of the intent - understanding the intent or the “why” is important too. Not as important as concentrating on recovering from many of the actions of those days that are still with us. The “Why” is important because it fills in the gaps and gives us the big picture. This is the reason why commissions/enquiries are set up in countries all over the world (apart from task forces that take corrective action on the ground) - to learn the “why” and see what we can learn from it. Though I suspect that Advani’s branding of it has more to it than patriotic fervor and this is supported by the fact that his party didn’t do much about it either.

Another point you have made is that the common man in India doesn’t care if those freedoms that were stripped from him haven’t been restored. Though this is true, don’t you think that is a consequence of the fact that most basic needs like water, electricity, primary education, health care etc are lacking in many if not most parts of India that these form the greatest concerns to the common man. Needs that are lower in the hierarchy haven’t been met as yet and this totally blinds him/her to broader issues such as economics. I am not trying to discount the importance or relevance of economics in our lives but just trying explain the apparent apathy towards it by the common man.

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