Nitin, why? China needs English (primarily) for the services sector, India needs infrastructure (primarily) for the manufacturing sector. Two different races there, and I don’t see why one impacts the other.
There is enough reason to believe that competition will encompass both services and manufacturing.
This question does not play to each country’s traditional strengths. English proficiency requires the people/entrepreneural initiatives in China, and infrastructure development government initiative in India.
The Chinese clients in India, the communists are quite powerful today and in these very crucial years, they have been successful in stalling all reform initiatives. The communist have also divided their labours. One wing works in the countryside, establishing “liberated corridors”, while the other sits in Delhi and keeps a hawks eye on any reform initiative that intends to break down the socialist leviathans that has so destituted India.
i agree with amit.
moreover, if china can create a service sector large enough to sustain, i.e. if China’s service sector is not export oriented then it might not need the english language. whereas India needs infrastructure.
Problem with India’s infrastrcture in core sectors (public goods like roads, irrigation, ports etc.) the investment has to come from government because there is not enough incentive for private sector to get into it. And government is looking at a very high deficit. so I dont knot know how the investment is going to happen.
Cutting deficit and improving tax base are 2 most obvious solutions to stimulate infrastructure investment.
Bangalore is often cited as a case of poor infrastructure “pushing down” services growth, I think it’s possible for the cause-effect equation to work the other way around as well ie, the demands from the services sector and its employees to “pull up” infrastructure … and for other cities/ locations to learn from Bangalore’s mistakes?
The 10, 000 crore question: will the “signals” from the services sector lead to (some) increased focus and action on the infrastructure front? Yes/ No?
Guys, China is a ticking time-bomb. Learning English is the least of their problems. They have to grapple with 900 million dissatisfied peasants (80% of their population?). Read on. India doesn’t have to worry too much I guess.
“The average annual income in Shanghai, 14,800 yuan ($1,790), is seven times as high as in rural Anhui, 2,100 yuan. In a nutshell, the annual income of a farmer in today’s China is only one-sixth to one-seventh that of an urban professional – but he pays three times as many taxes, plus a plethora of local taxes of dubious legality. Moreover, untold millions subsist on less than 2 yuan (24 cents) a day.”
“nequality in China is much more acute than in India. A recent study by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CAAS) says it is actually the worst on the planet, barring the odd sub-Saharan African country. China’s “peasant question” is an economic, social and political crisis of gargantuan proportions. Scholars at CAAS estimate that since the start of Deng’s reforms, 270 million Chinese have escaped poverty. That’s not enough in a nation of 1.3 billion people. The crucial question is how “one system, two countries”, where 400 million people advance while 900 million are left behind, can possibly co-exist. One billion peasants – 80% of the total population – can never be fully assimilated, no matter the rhythm of the economic miracle. ”
A question for anybody who might have the asnwer or can lead me in the right direction, but what is the current estimate of India’s Gini Coefficient?
We know that China’s has risen to outrageously high levels, among the highest in the world, but where does India stand? On article in the International Herald Tribune described the urban-rural income gap in India as narrowing, which I’m not sure if I should believe given the many more reports stating otherwise (though none are as convincing)
India’s current Gini may have risen to anywhere between 37 and 42, even though in 1999, it was a very admirable 32.5 (Wikipedia). Such a sharp rise is exactly what happened in China, so if this turns out to be true in India, that could very well be bad news for us as well. Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the corrects facts and figures can explain it.
Agree with Suman. Its not just the peasants that are dissatisfied but the entire Chinese population seems to be dissatisfied. The Chinese government is in a critical situation, where millions of Chinese are withdrawing from the Chinese Communist Party.
This wave of resignations started following the publication of the “Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party”
See the latest on the http://www.theepochtimes.com.
Comment by Prashant — December 16, 2005 @ 12:42 pm
[...] December 16, 2005 at 8:17 pm · Filed under del.icio.us The Indian Economy Blog » Blog Archive » India vs China, (over)simplified Ca [...]
I think infrastructure inefficiency would be a blessing in disguise. Imagine India that is advanced in Information science but lags in transportation infrastructure.. I think that is beneficial for the Indian citizens ‘Cos that gives sufficient time to broaden the trickling of wealth to different sections of the society.. Fast progress in Infrastructure makes the First comers capture the whole market thereby limiting the wealth to a very few people across the broad spectrum.. As far as overtaking/Lagging China, this whole discussion is NONSENSE and a waste of time… Simply ask the question why do the developed world need to come to India/China? It simply because of market expansion… So even if China is ahead in wealth, it or the rest of the world will always need another market… The real question would be who will capture the Middle East / African market.. That’s where the real competition would be between US / Europe / India / China and Japan…
okay, India number one! just remind your india guy one thing, your india has been committed democracy since 1946, and speak very indian english for 40 years,so what? indians still the most poorest country in the world! your gdp per capital even less Bhutan!
every time when i visited India, i can help but ….
“They have to grapple with 900 million dissatisfied peasants (80% of their population?). Read on. India doesn’t have to worry too much I guess.The average annual income in Shanghai, 14,800 yuan ($1,790), is seven times as high as in rural Anhui, 2,100 yuan. ”
Don’t you realize that 2,100 yuan is still higher than average income of Indian peasants??
Another thing that Indians don’t understand or cannot imagine is China’s high social mobility. Most of those high income people in urban area come from rural area. Check Forbe’s Chinese richest peeople list and you will find out. There is no caste system in China.
Yes agree with above comments. Chine is far better progress than India. So many industries are gone in to China for better prospects of her business. So many hurdles in India to set up your business. Corruptions is first and big one.
epochtime…. I cant believe someone is actually citing “the epochtime” to backup his argument. Anyway, Indian boy wake up, this world is very practicle. Get something done before you boast.
— “do a lot, talk a little” doesn’t hurt
Comment by zgzmaster — February 26, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
All of us need to look at the big picture. English is a very minor factor when it comes to the economy for a nation. None of the economic gaints rose because of their English proficiency. China needs to worry about other problems, not english proficiency. India should focus on other issues. You should realize that there is no way service can make a large country like india rich. The thought that serving 300 million westerners to make 1300 million indians rich is just near sighted.
“Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party” and http://www.theepochtimes.com ???
such stupid(funny) things in such a normal(serious) topic………
The service sector can never richen any country.Without a strong industry sector, any service is only a vulnerable toy.
English is not a decive factor(even not a factor) of economy. Take a look at Japan, Germany and France.
Come on, English is ‘not’ a advantage if a country really want to be
prosperous,but only infrastructure, education and resource are.
So, that’s why China puts such huge money on highway, city planning and electricity. That’s why China buys mines in Africa and Latin America, That’s why China buys oils in middle-east..
Chinese need industry, but not service.As a Chinese prime minister says “IT can not take you from home to office” (I regard IT as service)
Comment by passby hahaxiao — April 22, 2006 @ 4:54 am
despite of being an indian i’ll bet my money on china y ? the answers’s a little to lenthy but simple
1. NO MAN EVER BORN CAN NAME A SINGLE NATION (INCLUDING THE ENGLISH SPEAKING NATION’S OF THE WORLD) THAT DEVELOPED IT’S ECONOMY BECAUSE OF ” ENGLISH ” we can act big of so called call center’s….but the reality is that it’s nothing but call attending. remember how parents use to tease their children to force them towards study during the time of exams ” nahi padega to call attender ki naukri karega ya chaprasi banega ” we just cant hype about our economy just because of call center’s especially when we are being given these job’s because it’s easy for them to spend in rupees compared to dollar’s
2. china has far more land then us that’s rich in minerals which is an added advantage for them over india when it comes to manufacturing and also gives them an advantage in the field of agriculture. Besides this if u compare china’s population of 1300 million appro…. to 1018 million to that of ours their density of population stands only 480 million compared to our land mass this indirectly means even if surpass them in “per captia” our poverty rate would still be much much higher. it’s nominal gdp that count’s and india is not even in top 20 in terms of nominal gdp
3. if u say that china’s economy is not stable and can fall because of communism we dont need a reason to laugh like monkeys at ourselves cause we deliberately fool ourselves in believing what american’s and british tell us…hey they lost jobs and services to us worth 136 billion dollar’s b’coz of ousourcing….do u really think this would continue like this ….it’s only time before u will hear them cry and protest about this….then u will realise that it was a drunker’s dream about us beating china
Most analyst says, we are far behind to china but very good in IT. We are not aware of designing Chip, not developing machine like germany, making gaint & hitech product like china. It’s true.
The most of things we are not doing like China, It’s our present.
Blame it on plitics, junked democratic system & limited though of our last generation.
But things are changing very fast not visible.
Lots of people are getting good education, using computer, thinking about future, have an idea to change thier life from traditonal to additional.
Most of people in thier 20s & 30s says we can do, We can design a most challenging technology, We have an idea of building product and most important they are not waiting for revolution as our grandfather did. Ther are ready to fire changing the sorounding, some of them allrady started.
Think again IT, The IT sectore alone can not exhaust all the skilled labour. Then what rest of them will do? They can not wait for sitting ideal bcause they know how to utilise time. And new idea borns from here, some will go to have good job some will go to start own work with own idea.
Starting of small firm may be very small but leap will be very great in quantity & quality. It will make deference and will have cost advantage, technical expertise, and freedom of ideas.
If we want to be Lenevo like PC maker we don’t need to develope processor/Harddisk/Motherboard just need an idea how to sell these item. Once money grows we can think developing processor/Harddisk/Motherboard, Don’t mind if we can do then we can sell more vs our competetor becouse of our world’s best market & sales manpower.
As people think it will take decades. Forget it the things changes in these 5 years are more than the last 20 year.
The mentality between chinese and indian are very different. The indians talk about it all the time, about competing and comparing to China. Meanwhile the Chinese have been comparing their situation with Japan and the Western world. Some of you may not know that the Chinese name for their nation literal means “The center of the world”. It has been called that for 3000 years. And in the Chinese people’s mind, only the ‘CENTER OF THE WORLD’ is the rightful place for their country. Note that this mentality has never changed even at their darkest and poorest days.
In time, it is not the government that develops the economy. It is people themselves. And the government’s job is to free the productivity of the people. When you see a nation of people with vision, drive and education(like China), the nation will do well in the long run. It maybe 50 years or 150 years, but eventually the China will come back to the center of the world. After all it has been the largest economically for majority of the human history.
I feel that eventually India will triumph since chinese people dont have freedom, the authoritarian regime of Chinese community can do anything, the cheap products china make is by sucking the blood of millions of poor factory workers who have no voice and freedom, If they speak they will be killed.
Our economy triumph naturally competing with the world? Turn over wise we cant match you because what is happening in China is by force, not natural.
chinese are basically silent , hard and ruthless people without much emotions and the outlook towards life is totally materialistic.
It is a well known fact that Chinese nuclear weapons are facing USA and Europe. Moreover the chinses economy is export depending and any war or crisis anywhere in the world in major scale will affect the chinese people.
I would like to call a developed nation only when it free it people and become a true democracy and the prices of labour, services and commodities come to natural level. Using ruthless power you can supress people, currency and show to the world that you are best, but CHINESE look inside and speak, are you unlucky ? I say , you are very unlucky because you born and die and bonded people, we Indians are not………
GIJO K V,
One thing many people including you do not see is that: you scream your praises for your ‘democracy’ and view it as your silver bullet, while it has very little thing to do with economic development at all. I do agree democracy is a good thing, but only to a certain degree. When half of the voters are not able to read, making them vote only means backwardness. Democracy is good for societies that has material, has rulle of law and has a educated population. (i.e. the US and Europe). Once a society reaches that stage, then yes, DEMOCRACY! Notice that the west did not have democracy until it is rich, and the same did Japan, South Korean, etc.
When are you going to wake up from this dream???!!!! Democracy in India is just a myth to make you people contempt with their current situation. Much like nationalism in China. It is just an myth spread to the people to make you guys happy. Trust me, Economic development has nothing to do with whether the 500 million illiterates have the right to vote or not. It is the educated elite that is making india better, not the rule of democracy.
I am just sad when I see a nation of such history be deceived from the truth and become no more than a puppy of the west.
You raise some thought-provoking points, some of which I can’t help but agree with. Indeed democracy is at its most powerful when the people themselves are educated enough to make smart, judicious choices. In addition, without the full rule of the law and universal education, democratic societies such India’s are at a strong competitive disadvantage in terms of economic growth. And indeed, like you said, the educated elite is the one which is powering the Indian economic engine. China’s government provides it much more focus and direction, and an infrastructural edge which drives most of manufacturing production of the west to China. (I do not, however, agree that a country needs to be rich to be democratic. Education is important for success in democracy but money is not as big a factor – remember, capitalism does not “force” social equity?)
So why is India even a competitor? Well, in their acutely well-thought-out (yet not foolproof) blueprint for Chinese growth, the Chinese governments of the late 20th century understood the tools of the post-Industrial-Revolution era well, and focused on large scale, low costs production taking advantage of the availability of abundant manpower and resources. What they did not account for is the new economy – particularly the technology revolution of the 1990s and its effect on the meaning of economic growth. While China (actually more Taiwan, not actual China) was able to cash in on the hardware/chip-manufacturing sector pretty early, the technology revolution was creating a strong incentive for offshore development and services for the west…and more fortuitiously than anything else, India was best placed to take advantage of this demand.
Of course, there has been a lot of talk of English providing India a competitive advantage here (and I personally agree with it, despite some nationalist but un-economic claims otherwise, on this blog), but English was not the primary factor. Europeans spoke English, Australians spoke English, why the advantage on India? Well, it was the only country that COMBINED the availability of cheap manpower (unlike Japan), access to and availability of hundreds of thousands of engineers (unlike South Korea and the other Asian tigers) AND the higher penetration of English (big, but not the only problem with China/Korea). Smaller advantages included a democratic worldview and hardly any negativity towards the US and Europe. Disadvantages included poor infrastructure (getting better, but too slow at the moment vis-a-vis China), corruption(still a problem), and the weaker rule of the law (though, in a way better than China, which stifles individual business growth/freedom through state-directed policies and insular Communist law with weak property rights). Despite movements in the past few years, this is where the situation has remained. The Indian IT majors (TCS, Infosys and Wipro) are now multibillion dollar corporations that employ thousands and can command respect and (more importantly) business from US and Europe, but the infrastructural challenges remain. Business services (Call centers as well as legal/financial/medical/knowledge/process outsourcing) have further greatly increased the size of this service sector pie, enough to not allow economists as well as manufacturing-oriented critics to pooh-pooh this sector.
Does it mean India will retain the advantages? Not necessarily – Russia and Phillipines and Ireland etc and several other countries are snapping at its heels. But, if some of the challenges are overcome before the competitive advantages are lost, India can still stay ahead and grow into higher-margin higher-revenue generating services like product design (perhaps back-ended with some production also) and actually take the larger, intellectual/marketing share of that iPod instead of the lower-margin shares of manufacturing (ala China) or support and software design (ala current India). Where is China’s opportunity? Well, China will need to clean up its financal system (here, India is superior) get its hinterland more involved and share in its economic growth (as important for India also) and try and target only some aspects of the services sector (not all…remember Warren Buffett who said “if you don’t have a competitive advantage, don’t compete”). In other aspects, I am in awe of the juggernaut I know China is and is going to be, and I admire its growth and success. It will be hard for any country to challenge China’s manufacturing prowess. India can learn a lot from China in terms of efficiency, cost-leadership in manufacturing and infrastructural design, and sometimes, I sadly confess, a nationalist fervour.
Socially, I do sense what you mean when you say that Democracy is the opium for the Indian masses much like Nationalism is for the Chinese masses…and I agree, almost. Except that this opium has some advantages too, not just disadvantages. Japan and South Korea are examples of positive nationalism, as I suspect China is, too. However, democracy has allowed India’s private sector as well as its entrepreneurs to rise and shine over and above what they ever could, in a socialist regime such as Russia or 1960-80s India – it is not simply a “myth”, though it is overplayed by the media.
Two things that India and China can both capitalize on, is our (historically) strong family fabric, as well as our cultural heritage, which is full of philosophical as well as scientific strengths, but I am sure this is both unclear and challenging for both countries, because it’s advantages need to seep in through the educational system, which for India is undeveloped, and for China, is still based more on nationalism (insular “center of the world” logic rather than nationalistic pragmatism). It remains to be seen how these countries do on these counts – hard to say.
Also, I can see the competition-oriented conversations abounding here….but where are the cooperational ideas? Europe as well as US-Canada are examples of how geographic proximity need not be a result of negative competition. Even in Europe, competition has not met enmity or hostile behavior but regional cooperation…there is a strong possibility of economic cooperation for India and China to successfully leverage their large populations and academic & cultural strengths to succeed in the coming decades. Why are we letting the “competition” theories (very popular “Chindia” debates in the west) necessarily pitt us against each other? Perhaps the cooperational synergies are large.
Finally, as far as the “puppy of the west” accusation goes, that is purely motivated by the ‘nationalistic’ fervour of these conversations than by rationale. Whether you are in manufacturing and sell your production to Dell or Vodafone, or whether you provide back-office support, services and software development for Dell or Vodafone, your revenue source is still the same: the US and Europe. That makes neither India nor China a “puppy”. An international economy has buyers and sellers. The west is a buyer, India sells to them just like China does. Besides, you know very well that the British used to buy cheap raw materials from India/China, produce in England and sell back finished goods to India in the 1800-1900s, did that make them India or China’s puppy? Don’t think so. Goods and money flow where they are needed, and this is a cornerstone of free economies. Now, I totally understand if Chinese and Russians find these concepts less understandable, because for so many years, they were nowhere near being economically free (tongue-in-cheek comment, please do not argue on this on an academic basis).
Now, I am not saying that India is, or for that matter, even the US is free economically. But economic freedom is closely linked with political freedom; China’s lack of political freedom, while great for its manufacturing and infrastructural progress, is a hindrance for its internal intellectual and social freedoms, which have just as much of a long-term impact on economic growth as roads/factories and SEZs do.
I’ll sum up by saying that the road ahead has opportunities and challenges for both India and China – different ones, and hence, both will have different paths. Their success in overcoming the challengings and amplifying the advantages will determine the impact on their economic growth. There are possibilities for selective competition and cooperation, and there are also possibilities for developing different core competencies. Only time will tell, what the ultimate direction of policies and events is, even as this debate shall continue on this blog as well as in the western media, until the next “hot” story comes along for them. India and China need to keep trucking along, as there is indeed a strong future for both countries.
Whoops. I wrote too much. I’ll end here. For your reference, I am an investment banker by trade, and hold dual degrees in Economics and Computer Science. Economic and technology debates interest me greatly and I often write “think”-pieces on subjects of my interest. If only my job wasn’t as strenuous as it is, I would blog my own ideas!
Like most indians i’ve been fasinated with china’s growth over the last 2 decades and am interested in observing how india and indians makes a place for themselves in the world commity i.e. Economically, socially and spritually.
I strongly believe English and Democracy has contributed hugely to the development of India as a state and Indians as global citizens. To substatiate my point you will notice indians in administrative roles as head of state or as important state leaders right from Fuji in the pacific to trinidad and tabago in the caribeans, with countries in SE-Asia, ME, Africa and Europe included going across the time zone.
Secondly in the professional field be it Medical, Finance or even academics indians make up the largest group of professionals in all of these regions after the local community, except for SE-Asia and USA the prescence of chinese professionals is quite rare in other regions.
On the global economic scene again Indians headed by LNM, Vedanta, TATA’s and the IT companies are making their prescence felt on traditional sectors of the economy unlike most chinese entrepreuners with global prescence mainly due to their real estate fortunes from HKG.
Being an Aircraft engineer i have seen the emphasis on clear and concise communication in english is strongly advocated around the world and rightly so, i am presently living in U.K. and pursuing a part-time college degree in Air Transport management.At college i have come across many research studies on the quality & safety in Aircraft maintenance,in countries with non-english speaking engineers. Infact all of these studies have been carried out on china in particular. The record of aviation safety in Korea is well known ( Not that india has a glorious record; better than most asian countries).The quality of indian engineering ”leaves a lot to be desired” however it has shown remarkable improvement when challenged with global competition. J.D. Power the auto industry benchmarking expert claim Indian auto exports are the best quality outside of Japan and USA, better than the chinese by far.
The reasons for indians being confident in facing challenges around the world stems from our education in english and the fierce debates at school due to our democratic principals . Amartya sens ”Argumentative indian” illustrates this well. In a totalitarian society people are subservient and loose their voice to challenge any wrong. It took Britain over 10years to decide on building the 5th terminal at heathrow, however the same british administration made a decision and built the Chep lok kok airport at HKG in less than 10years. The point i am driving at is in democratic britain the british debated on the viability of the project however in partnership with a totalitarian china they went ahead and built a monster of an airport with another 2 exising huge airports within 2 hrs drive in Shenzen and Guangdong. Once direct flights betwen Taiwan and China are formalised HKG looses its USP and will be underutilised with a huge overcapacity. This infrastructure just like many other projects around China have been built without suuficient views of all.
Personally i feel the spirit of democracy stems naturally to the indian mind, the roots are instilled in our religion. I say this because i don’t see democray in its true form even in highly educated oriental societies i.e. Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia. There is a element of totalitarianism in the form of restricting the entry of certain segments of the political spectrum, right and left in these countries.
The evolution of the indian economy and politics is truly amazing. Inspite of being exposed directly to the threats of communism and anarchy in the 70′s & 80′s and fundamentalist terrorists more recently the economy and the political arena seem to developing positively, china has been a closed economy through most of the cold war.
I prefer airports in India to be developed progressively as per demand and the politician to be answerable to their constituents through elections rather than a top down I KNOW THE BEST, frog in the pond attitude. Huge infrastructure will boost growth but not sustain it, watch how the economies of the middle-east unfold with their huge investments in transportation infrastructure, they are now plagued with manpower shortages due to cost and wage inflation, india is and will be their only source of skilled reliable labour another indiavtion of the tangible value the Indian brings to global economy. The number of chinese students in U.K. wishing to stay back is increasing indicating a possible shortage looming in china in the future.
Lots of things in my previous comments I said was just for provoking people. Because I wanted to see more comments on this subject and know more about people’s opinons on it. So about those nationalism comments, I did not really mean it. After all I said myself that nationalism is a myth in china. There is a long to go for both of us. I see an opportunity for both of us to become developed and prosporous within this century. I think it is our responsibility to make it happen. It is also our responsibility to gain the world’s respect for our children, so that they will not suffer and be colonized like our grandparents was.
However, there is one catch: We can only achieve this if we work together instead against each other. We have much to learn from each other. As you said, being geographically close does not turn neigbors against each other. The super powers are the ones been turning us against each other, and that is what they want for any powerful nation in the world. This should not be the case between china and india.
Authoritarianism ultimately cripples creativity. Why do we live, why do we earn and why do we progress ? Its all for happiness.
Authoritarianism would breed discontentment and with a critical mass will destroy quickly all that was created.
Its not a good thing. At the end of the day I dont care how much of GDP my country earns. That doesent make me happy persay. What makes me happy is how much do I earn ? Do I have a decent life ? Can I move to the city and get myself a job ? Can me kids have the same opportunity ?
Tell me one thing, honestly how many poor chinese from the villages can move to beijing and find an opportunity for themselves ? Answer zilch.
Cos, beijing, shangai have been masterminded to dazzle the western world. Its an artificial world. Slums are frowned upon. But it is these slums which help the poor to live and earn in a big city.
I dont hink, snazzy superhighways are any measure of progress. Its the freedom to persue an opportunity (political, social and economical) thats the indicator of progress. Even UN recogonises HD as a measure of progress not purely money and definintely not collective. Lets talk of GDP percapita in purchasing power parity terms (and not absolute terms). Then you see India is not that bad.
I think you have got your understanding all wrong and wrapped up. We in India have our own problems but we are honest in admitting it seeking the best solution and are constantly grappling it.
The communist regime in china is turning a blind eye to the problems of china. One day it will fester out. Democracy, freedom and liberty are much more valuable than dollars.
You should travel to china and maybe live there for like a year. Then you will really understand what i am talking about. Many people are too far mislead to even talk about this topic. I lived in China for many years. I have been living in the USA for another 10 years. I totally agree that China has many problems to be solved. Just that your image of china and its society is too manipulated.
just let me make sure that there are a few things I need to get it right:
1. China is still poor on average and the gap is wide. However, because of good infrastructures and basic services, common people seem to live a better life than the other developing countries. However, they face poverty of a different sort, much like those in Russia in the 1990s.
2. There are a lot of web blogs in China, and a lot of comments are criticizing the governments(certainly not as intensive as many countries like USA). The reason foreign guys do not know it is because they do not read Chinese. China has the largest on line population in the world.
3. Statistics show more than 100 million from rural areas travel to big cities(such as Beijing and Shang hai) to find jobs EVERY SINGLE YEARS. The migrant workers is one of the major labor source of China’s economy.
4. The communist government is very aware of the problems and are constantly caring out meassurements and laws to solve them. And PEOPLE support THEM. The government officials are recruited by examinations, and the everyone can participate.
5. There is only one party in the government, the communist party. It is just a name and virtually no one in the party believes in communism. It has 70 million members, and democracy is usually used within the party. If you know statistics, you will understand that 70 million is a very good sample size for any data. Therefore, democracy is used in the Chinese, although not in a universal way like India.
6. When I was in China during the cold war period, we were taught lies about capitalism and the west. After the cold war, the Chinese have dropped those lies from their education system and media. When I came to USA, I am so surprised that the same kind of lies are being taught here about my own country, and yet no one here has the intend to drop it. I am surprised even more when people from India are brainwashed as well.
I am from China (currently in the UK) and I dont know who Su Li is, but I would like to confirm some of his comments. My English is poor as indicated by Nitin :-( , I am also sorry for any grammar or spelling mistake:
1. Both India and China are still poor/developing countries, there is no point that you looking down on my country because of the so-called ‘democracy problem’ and we laughing at you because of maybe one or two problems in India. It looks like a beggar with only one penny laughing at another one with only a piece of bread. Even America has lots of problems. Why not respect each other and learn to share the future?
2. There are many social/economic problems in China. We know that, the ‘communist’ party (in fact no one cares about whether it is still ‘communist’ or not) also knows that. All Chinese people are working on the problems for a sustainable development. However, some of the problems highlighted by our Indian friends are probably exaggerated to some extent. I think Su Li has explained a lot and I dont need to repeat them.
3. We are not unlucky/bonded people. For example, I think that the current leaders of PRC are probably able to gain support from more than half of our people. Also, I believe that many Chinese people will disapprove radical political reform because a majority of us agree that ‘lifting living standards takes the top priority’. When the country becomes richer/more stable, democracy will gradually/eventually be achieved.
4. I know that India is a democratic nation and you are proud of it. I believe most of the Chinese people know that as well and fully respect that. I am sure China will become more and more democratic, but before then please also give some respect to our approach that ‘improving living standards takes top priority’. I dont think there are many nations in the world can experience both radical political reform and radical economic reform at the same time with no harm.
5. In fact the ‘democracy problem’ in China is not that bad as in some of the comments above. Anyway, go to China when you have time, to find out by yourself whether it is actually worse or better than your imagination. Many Chinese people are very welcoming so you will enjoy the trip, trust me.
As a Chinese who has lived in US for 10 years (in China now), I have visited diferent Indian cities recently.
I think it’s very hard to change Indian’s point of view on China especially they’ve been brainwashed for such a long time. I know a couple of Indians who are working in shanghai, they told me what kind of impression on China they had BEFORE they came to China. Of course they have a fresh, totally different view now from all aspects.
So maybe I think the only way to let a person know a real China (if he’s sincere to know) is to pay a trip to there and experience it, or maybe asking a honest Indians who has been there can also help.
China is a totally differnt country now than 30 years ago, where Indian people’s perception of China still resides. India is developing fast now (in many cities) but believe me, even tier-3 Chinese cities looks much cleaner, more organized, more affluent than most Indian large cities. Surprisingly, I found Chinese people are much opener in mindset than Indian people.
I don’t have any negative views on India or Indian people. I just want to be honest and speak out the fact I have seen in my own eyes.
as a computer graduate ,i would like to insist that wheather the china or india rises !! it will benifit the other directly or indirectly!! for the rise of a country ,the people contribution is must,though i must admit that india will slowly but perfectly rise and the world will have to respect it as the new power of this century!!
well we must now do our jobs sincerely to achieve this objectives!!
I am of Indian origin, a Singapore citizen now formerly a British resident. We have lived in Singapore for more than 30 years. Chinese dominate, but other races live here peacefully and the attitude everywhere is to live and let live.
I found Chinese at all levels more able to take risks and move on with it; Indians are less so, happier always with a job. Indian enterprise is usually at the top. I found Chinese know the administrative trick, they know that to reach a higher level of living standard in a short time ( we cannot wait hundreds of years to reach the standards of Europe and America) we must pull up our shoes, consolidate and not play games with democratic excesses ( just another name for British/American saxonology, they like this for that will ensure we take hundreds of years before we reach their standards). No wonder British loved Bapuji and not so much Vallav Bhai Patel; so India remains a ‘beautiful’ land where people speak ‘freely’and yet its cities and infrastructure forever rotten, result of cotton weaving economics bequathed by Bapu ; forever threatened by Pakistan knowing Bapuji’s India is stalled by Ahimsa ( Bapuji did not discover Ahimsa, Buddha did 2600 years ago!), and with the British encouragement Nehru gave away Tibet to China and then got licked and kicked by a country who were not afraid then or now, to call a spade a spade. Whoever Mao was, a criminal no doubt, he was never as bad to China in the end (he united the Chinese) as Gandhi ( Bapuji ) and Nehru were to India. Whatever we are doing there today is not because of them but despite them. Gandhi’s legacy is ‘democratic’ disunity forever, so ‘humane’ yet such a disgusting insulting legacy to leave. Westerners love Gandhi and hate Mao- no wonder of course!!
[...] Hence if economic progress is considered, India and China do not complement (that is besides the increased efficiency which free trade brings) each other as much as they are competitors by the virtue of their being most populous nations. [Ref] [...]
I like this kind of discussion honestly, Its sensible debate without having to spitting out racist comments about each other. I think the Indians and the Chinese should be friends , collaborate on many fields and achieve their ultimate goal : lifting people out of poverty
I am from Andhra, India. I agree with all and I mean All the comments posted here. China, I have to agree you are better in growing. I looked at the comparisons. Airports, cities, transportations, etc, all are outstanding in China. In India, we have our own world that we like to live in. The only difference is comming from rich people in India and everyone has to agree with that. Most of the rich is always poverty and that might change, but in today’s society, it will never change. So i know i am blabbering things, but I feel that people should hear this too. I am a proud desi and am proud to be one. Jai Hind.
Please don’t see my comments as offensive. If you do, please leave a comment so I won’t do it again.
I think India will beat China in the long run. China is not united country. Guangdong people don\’t like northern chinese. Fujiang people don\’t like guangxii people. Chinese has lot minorities and not united as we think. I think in the next 50 years, all china will be splitted up to several small countries,.. guangdong, tibet, xinjang, fujjang, guangxxii…. The world will be safer. India then can take back Tibet and Xinjang. China is a communist country. India is a good democracy country.
Comment by vinod patel — January 8, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
“India then can take back Tibet and Xinjang.” – vinod patel
Dream on, baby…
Comment by NotVinod — February 19, 2007 @ 11:39 am
Some very interesting discussion concerning recent economic developments in China and india. Comparative and analytical, in-depth with lots of interesting facts and figures
I find it highly surprising that people (specially chinese friends here) discount democracy against GDP growth. Folks, no one in this world (not at least in their right mind) has died for an extra 0.00001% of yearly GDP growth anywhere (not even not in China). On the other hand countless people have literally paid with their lives for simple freedoms upon which democracy is based on.
So before we start comparing GDP growth rate, keep in mind that what you refer to democracy hasn\’t come cheap in India. Its been achived after almost a 1000 years of opressive rule.
Democracy is a way of organizing goverment and resources that preserves basic rights and freedom that people value becuase that is what people value the most. Events in history has often showed this again and again not just in India but everwhere else too. The structure and organization of democracy is not designed to promote GDP growth or the autocratic (and somewhat stupid) goal of becoming #1 superpower in the world. The structure and organization of an ant colony will do a better job of matching China\’s GDP growth than a democrcy.
What India is doing right now is attmpting an experiment in human history. It is trying to show the world that it is possible to grow quickly and massivly under a democratic system. Move a billion plus poeple out of relative scarcity into relative affluence under a democratic system. Therefore, unlike China there is more at sake in case of India\’s growth than just GDP numbers.
I wouldn\’t trade my freedom to write a personal letter to all the top members of the government telling them how idotic they are and how I am going to start a movement to remove them from power just becuase I feel like doing so. Let me know how many years it will take you in china to do the same thing? In india we definitely couldn\’t do it for 300 years under british rule. Hopefully, you will be able to do it sooner than that.
No offence, but personally, I tend to think that there is something inherently wrong with idea that values GDP more than freedom. I would definitely sacrifice a thousand shiny high rise buildings and trains that zip people 50 miles at 300km/hour (waste of resources anyway) for freedom without a blink of an eye.
Comment by Albert Pinto — February 24, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
As an chinese, I think China has much to learn from outer world!!
Comment by China man — February 26, 2007 @ 1:17 pm
I do not think that we should compare India with China – A democracy versus totalitarian rule. If you look at the growth definitely China is and will be growing in a much better way. Whether we like it or not democracy doesn’t always helps to stabilize and help in the growth of a country.
y the by why do we need Tibet and Xinjang. Let them be where ever they are but hope they will live peacefully and not be troubled in any way.
People who value GDP growth over the freedom of expression are fools. Dollars are LESS valuable, not more, than the right to know and speak the truth.
Very high levels of literacy are impressive. Being allowed to read ONLY what the CCP “allows” you to is not.
Being the world’s largest producer of everything and having high economic freedom is impressive. Having ABSOLUTELY NO political freedom is not.
Having the fastest growing large economy in the world is impressive. Having 6 out of the 10 most polluted cities in the world is not.
Lifting hundreds of millions of people out of absolute poverty is impressive. Income inequality reaching proportions where the Chinese “Communist” Party admits the problem could be a threat to its very existence is not.
Hundreds of millions of internet connections are impressive. Not being allowed to connect to the BBC website, and thousands more, is not.
Being allowed to criticize the government is impressive. Not being allowed TO DO anything about it is not.
I would gladly trade the glittering skylines of Shanghai and Shenzen for these freedoms. Why must a nation be drowned in lies?
1. Gansu’s GDP is about 10 times as that of Bihar.
2. The quality of civic infrastructure of DunHuang – proper pavements, parks, pedestrian zones – is superior to that of any Indian town and modern housing seems, to the casual visitor at least, to be in ample supply.
3. The city centre and skyline of Lanzhou – The Capital of Gansu Province and one of the poorer cities of China – look as impressive as Nariman Point.
For some background information about Dunhuang and Lanzhou, which were mentioned in above articles, please see pictures from following sites:
Bihar often tends to get short end of the stick. Sure there is a lot of things that are wrong with Bihar, but people often forget that it was the most developed region of the world in 300BC.
So who gives a damn if Bihar was the most developed region of the world in 300BC? Well if you are a Chinese whose belief system includes some form of Buddhism, you should. Becuase if it was not for efforts made by King Ashoka (who ruled India from Bihar), Buddhism would never have spread outside of a narrow region in India. You know about Buddhism today becuase of Bihar and its people in 300BC.
Why should Indians care about Bihar today? Well, becuase much of what we mean today by the term “Indian” was defined in Bihar way back in history. Irrespective of which region of India you may be from there is a little bit of Bihari in all of you.
Bihar is definitely down today, but if its past is any indication of future, it definitely cannot be underestimated in any sense of the word.
What contribution has Gansu made to the world? Whatever it is, I am sure it is not even worth mentioning as compared to contribution that Bihar has made to the rest of the world.
Bihar should at least take a look of Gansu’s development experience. This is not to say Bihar has to copy it but to get some different perspectives. Last year world bank president Wolfwitz toured Gnasu and delivered a speech at Lanzhou University, in which he mentioned how much progress was made in some of the harshest natural environemnt. Recently we noticed that the head of India’s Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Professor Ramila Bhist and Kashimir agriculture secretary Tsering Nurboo visited Lanzhou University (http://news.lzu.edu.cn/article.jsp?newsid=8280) for collaborations. This might be the direct result from India journalists’s earlier visits.
Gansu’s development is a very good business case for stuyding poverty reduction. Historically, Gansu was among one of the places where the Chinese culture was bron and natured. Gansu is the home of one of the two China’s earliest emperors, The Yan Emperor. Every year, Chinese from all corners of the world will travel to Gansu’s Tianshui City to pay respect to the Yan Emperor. Gansu is also well-known as the key part of the ancient silk road where different religions have been living together peacefully for thousand years.
However, Gansu slowly drifted to poverty over time and has been generally regarded as one of the poorest provinces in China. When people’s republic of China was established, Gansu and its capital city, Lanzhou, had no modern industry at all. How bad the situation was: the mountains of around the Lanzhou City had only one tree standing (all trees you see in Lanzhou now have been painstakingly planted by hands and watered by taking water from yellow river with manual labor in early days).
For looking into Gansu’s developemnt experience, we recommend Bihar or other developing nations to start with education and R&D. Our research data shows that the education and long-term planning are two keys for steady and predicted development. In Gansu’s case, education and R&D were put in place much much earlier than the current infrastructure boom.
For education and R&D, we found that it took at least several decades for Gansu and Lanzhou to emerge as a technology base for providing local economy benefits. There are no short-cut to poverty reduction. Both government support and hard work from local people are required.
How was this be done? Here is the clue: the establishment of PR China was quickly followed a nation wide redistrubution of education resources in 1950s. Lanzhou was selected by then as the site for establishing a comprehensive university for overseeing the China’s western region development. At the same time, a big branch of Chinese Academy was also located at Lanzhou for devloping R&D solutions for local economy (as well as for the nation). The results of that early planning has been amazingly positive:
1). Lanzhou is now one of the major education and R&D centers in China. Our recent data shows that Lanzhou has over 700 research entities (including industry and universities) for doing almost all kinds of activities for the local economy.
2). Lanzhou University and Chinese Academy Lanzhou Branch solved all engineering problems for Qinghai-Tibet railway construction. This is the direct result of many years of research accumulation on west region’s environment and natural landscapes.
3). Lanzhou University and Chinese Academy Lanzhou Branch host world class research centers for arid agriculture and desert science. Lanzhou is designated by Unitted Nations for training scientists for africa and other nations for battling desert.
4). Lanzhou also lead on solar energy technology and United Nations recently selected Lanzhou as its solar technology training center for developing nations.
5). Lanzhou University was selected to join the international team for traking and researching climate change.
6). Gansu is the host province for China’s manned-space program and launch center.
7). Lanzhou is the home of China’s number one selling magzine: the “Reader”, with over 10 million copies per year. The magzine was started by two Lanzhou University graduates.
8). Lanzhou is the home of China’s number one dance drama: The Dream on the Silk Road. Recently it toured Europe and Australia and will tour US in 2008. The Lanzhou Symphony Orchestra also toured Europe with performance in Vienna Golden Hall in early 2007.
The highest respect has to give to India Journalists for writing what they saw without political and emotional bias. For poverty reduction, the reality has to be faced by finding solutions. We will continue to monitor how Bihar and Gansu developing in the future.
> We will continue to monitor how Bihar and Gansu developing in the future
Thanks and “We” will continue to monitor how regime change takes place in Lanzhou and then spreads into Gansu before causing a regime change in entire China. You can start by posting a sign calling for regime change in Lanzhou’s main square.
Good luck with running the Gansu propoganda department until then.
chinese and indian main problems are their govts while the chinese have an economically sound govt but its oppresive nature has already put them on a collision curse with the growing educated and rich population china is a capitalist nation run by a communist govt if china doesnt begin a gradual transition towards a more free and none oppressive china we will see tianamen square where the people will become the hunters and the politicians will become the hunted india on the other hand has a corrupted religious based uneducated local govt that preys on victims of beaucratic redtapes as dense as the amazon forest this cycle will only break when again more of the population grows rich and educated im really happy for chinese success because if it wasnt for their growth out indian politicians wouldn’t have done a thing to help grow our economy im more than hapy for our govt to race and belittle the chinese because the more powerful and successful the chinese become the more fear and jealousy it will instill in indian politicians and force them to learn and take necessary action to grow the economy
to keep it simple the chinese drive and look out for obstacles and avoid them while our govt drive hits the obstacles and then looks at the road
31 African officials drew Gansu’s experiences of poverty reduction.
Thirty-one government officials from 16 African countries arrived in remote, underdeveloped northwest China’s Gansu Province on Saturday to draw on useful experiences of poverty reduction.
These officials, from countries such as Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Egypt, Cote d’Ivoire and Kenya, will in the following week visit the countryside of the province to see successful poverty-reduction programs and practices there, including returning cultivated land to forests and building water cellars.
Gansu is one of the poorest provinces in China, but it has made lots of achievements in poverty alleviation – there were more than 12 million people who had no adequate food and clothing, but now, there are less than 3.2 million low-income people.
“I should thank the Chinese government for building such a communication platform which helps me understand China better. China’s ideas and policies of poverty reduction are as same as Egypt’s but the concrete ways and means are not the same. A lot of experiences worth us learning,” said Mohamed Hassan Mohamed Rashwan, from Egypt’s Ministry of Community Development.
These African officials came here from Beijing, where they have received training on poverty reduction for a week as part of a 15-day training course on poverty reduction.
At the Beijing Summit of the Forum on China-Africa Cooperation held last November, Chinese President Hu Jintao pledged to strengthen China-Africa cooperation through eight measures including training 15,000 personnel in all fields in the upcoming three years.
The training course is part of that commitment and also the second of its kind this year. China held four training courses last year for developing countries in Africa and south Asia.
“We will hold more such courses and exchange experiences with other developing countries,” said Wu Zhong, from the China International Poverty Alleviation Center, which organizes the training courses.
The Chinese government decided to embark on a poverty eradication campaign in a large, planned, organized manner in 1986. The number of Chinese in abject poverty has dropped from 250 million in 1978 to 26.1 million in 2004.
To compare India & China on their economy would not be possible because of the difference in their educational and political situation.
Indians still have not woken up to the fact that the progress they are seeing is primarily because of the service industry and predominantly because of the IT service industry.
We are becoming dependent only on the sofware part of IT and not developing an harware skills with our education system. There should be more concentartion on hardware and manufacturing in the IT industry. School should implement hardware learning programs from the primary level just as they are doing on the software level. This will create an interest in the new generation towards hardware and manufacturing.
India should become more production oreinted and also maintain the service industry simultaniuosly.
This will give it and advantage over china.
Also to speed up the progress it will be very important to reduce corruption, red tape and create a political initative towards in this direction
Well well people supporting china should realize the fact that india’s present youth are far more global than china’s. indians across the world are more patriotic towards thier country than any country people.India has the best brains in the world.Come 2050 India will rule..
I originally didnot want to comment on this issue, but looks a lot of us Indians live in the dream world. Guys get real, we have a very long way to go before we can be called a progressive nation. We still have the largest number of poor people in the world.
Our present growth while being wonderful, has primarily benefitted the people blogging here, i.e. the middle class.
Also the article, it mentions that the inflation figures as being low, but then that’s WPI!!!. The real inflation faced by the common man is much higher.
Also we face a current account deficit minus capital inflows from abroad. Everybody here seems to underestimate the effect on the economy if due to some reason, there is a big reduction is capital inflows. We could end up with 1991 all over again.
hi, i am currently living in Yiwu, China…im a born Indian & brought up in India,Lived in China for many years.
i just loved reading the comments made on this blog> India has a long way to go in regards to many factors that actually concern economy of a country. in regards to language i dont think we are properous because we speak english. many Indians live in China where as in china they hardly speak English, we learn their language and do business with them. language can be learnt and dealth with in a short period of time. India is hanging behind is only because of corruption. if these stupid ministers leave the politics to Young educated aggresive citizen, india can prosper in no time. Its because of these politicians that we have religious fights and problems.
Democracy is always good but not good when a country is divided where there is no majority and end of joining hands in like a coillition government. the stupid people didnt even let Sonia Gandhi take the stand as Prime Minister just because she was an italian at birth, what about her commitment to the country fight in the same views as her late Husband Rajiv Ghandi. she would have done a much better Job not that the present p.m isnt doing a good one himself.
China is much more developed and grows fast. Buildings built everywhere and in a very short period of time. where as in India it takes them years to even get a license to build leave alone the time it takes them to build. sadess part is India’s transport system is the worst. how will we be able to build an economy when we cant get our working force to work on time.
we have the capability to rule the world, we are smart, even our Dhabalwala’s worked in an amazing way united. the key to success is united and a systematic way and must change our politicians to the younger generation.
I feel China is going to face major problems in the future first of all most of their major population are average 40+ and are allowed 1 kid per family- their economy is driven only by the population which in the future will fall drastically. Plus their the funniest thing i have ever seen in my life the kids who pass out graduating from colleges when they come for an interview they come in with their mother (the are over protected) instead of the person looking for the job answer questions his mother answer it for him!!! ( our indian kids at age 9 are smarter in answering then the a college student in china).
well all i can say Im proud I was born in India & it will change in time( fingers crossed)