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	<title>Comments on: Reservations about Reservations</title>
	<atom:link href="http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/</link>
	<description>Issues &#38; insights</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: satish</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-267902</link>
		<dc:creator>satish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-267902</guid>
		<description>i dont know why people worry about reservation when they are going to face an oil crisis. If they dont solve oil crisis now, we all will die within 4 years. What's the point about reservations if we are not alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i dont know why people worry about reservation when they are going to face an oil crisis. If they dont solve oil crisis now, we all will die within 4 years. What&#8217;s the point about reservations if we are not alive.</p>
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		<title>By: Himangshu Thakur</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-267901</link>
		<dc:creator>Himangshu Thakur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-267901</guid>
		<description>excellent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent</p>
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		<title>By: Siva</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-167558</link>
		<dc:creator>Siva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 10:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-167558</guid>
		<description>The upper caste people have mercilessly suppressed the lower caste people for centuries. unless reservation based on caste is made available to them no one will worry about them for ever. The reservation based on caste should exist till all people reach equal heights</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The upper caste people have mercilessly suppressed the lower caste people for centuries. unless reservation based on caste is made available to them no one will worry about them for ever. The reservation based on caste should exist till all people reach equal heights</p>
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		<title>By: www.mixedbag.in &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Economics of you-know-what</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-57888</link>
		<dc:creator>www.mixedbag.in &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Economics of you-know-what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-57888</guid>
		<description>[...] Now I find that a few of my arguments and concerns have already been expressed in a very lucid manner by Atanu Dey at The Indian Economy blog. Here&#8217;s another one. And another. There&#8217;s more promised and I&#8217;m looking forward to it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Now I find that a few of my arguments and concerns have already been expressed in a very lucid manner by Atanu Dey at The Indian Economy blog. Here&#8217;s another one. And another. There&#8217;s more promised and I&#8217;m looking forward to it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shahryar</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4953</link>
		<dc:creator>Shahryar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4953</guid>
		<description>Caste-based reservations is anti-evolutionary!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caste-based reservations is anti-evolutionary!</p>
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		<title>By: Ramakumar Subramanian</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4893</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramakumar Subramanian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4893</guid>
		<description>Good comments Arvind Saraf. KK your comments are outrageous and disgusting. Please talk sensible stuff. 

The basic problem we face is politicians and caste system as Rashmi says. You are talking like a rowdy KK. Please remember our war is against the quota system and the caste system and not against any community. People like KK give a bad name to such a struggle which makes it look like open vs backward. This is not the case.

We are one. Our country is one. It is high time that everyone understands this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments Arvind Saraf. KK your comments are outrageous and disgusting. Please talk sensible stuff. </p>
<p>The basic problem we face is politicians and caste system as Rashmi says. You are talking like a rowdy KK. Please remember our war is against the quota system and the caste system and not against any community. People like KK give a bad name to such a struggle which makes it look like open vs backward. This is not the case.</p>
<p>We are one. Our country is one. It is high time that everyone understands this.</p>
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		<title>By: Rashmi Trivedi</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4763</link>
		<dc:creator>Rashmi Trivedi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4763</guid>
		<description>Nice comments there, Vinay Lohar. The world knows India better than the Indians themselves.

We should indeed get rid of the caste system in Hinduism first. It has ruined India. 

Unless the caste system is destroyed the reservation quota will last. So lets get rid of the dissease from it's roots.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice comments there, Vinay Lohar. The world knows India better than the Indians themselves.</p>
<p>We should indeed get rid of the caste system in Hinduism first. It has ruined India. </p>
<p>Unless the caste system is destroyed the reservation quota will last. So lets get rid of the dissease from it&#8217;s roots.</p>
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		<title>By: deepthi</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4699</link>
		<dc:creator>deepthi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 07:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4699</guid>
		<description>reservations should not be given.its very sad thing that one of the factors effecting our great country's development is RESERVATIONS.if india is a democratic,secular country why the government is giving reservations based on caste and showing discrimination?merit are not being given respect in our country.EQUALITY should be there.dont kill merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>reservations should not be given.its very sad thing that one of the factors effecting our great country&#8217;s development is RESERVATIONS.if india is a democratic,secular country why the government is giving reservations based on caste and showing discrimination?merit are not being given respect in our country.EQUALITY should be there.dont kill merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Arvind Saraf</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4618</link>
		<dc:creator>Arvind Saraf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 May 2006 21:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4618</guid>
		<description>There have been a lot of discussions, talks, and opinions flying around about the reservation issue recently. I have witnessed many policy debates recently. They include Narmada dam issue recently to Outsourcing debate and Anti-war protests in the United States a couple of years ago. There has been something fundamental in all these that irks me, and that I will like to share.

We often form a very black or white opinion on an issue and then try to justify it. This is risky -- trying to justify our stand, we often compromise on reason. I have seen many absurd arguments, both for or against reservation, in print or television media. They are often more of emotional outbursts that won't pass the test of a logically coherent argument.

It is understandable that people get emotional and agitated on issue such as reservations. However, I don't think emotions ever solve problems. If you feel strongly about something and I feel the exact opposite, it is difficult for us to agree -- emotions often override our understanding and closes our mind. I think consensus is reached when different parties sit down, list out some basic assumptions about the issue, and work out a framework for using logic and data to use further conclusions. Then, one digs out that data, plugs that into the agreed upon framework, and agrees on whatever results.

I will now indulge in a similar thought experiment on reservations.

Lets begin with the basic assumptions of reservations:
- There are some easily identifiable (or verifiable) underprevileged (economically or socially) groups of people.
- Reservations are justified for these underprevileged groups on one of the following grounds:
  - The underprevileged members had fewer or worse education opportunities and thus haven't been able to perform on par with the rest. Their current performance is not a true indicator of their true aptitude and efforts; when given equal opportunities as the rest of the society, they will peform better than their current performance indicators. Therefore, selection critera must be relaxed for them. [True merit theory]
  - Giving opportunities to anyone will improve his family condition. This improvement will be more for a family worse off than the rest of the society. Thus, it maybe better to compromise even on the true merit because of the net gain to the society. [Net worth theory]

The questions that are asked now are:

- Should we have reservations -- are the present reservations justified?

This depends on for whom. The critera, atleast theoretically, could be gender, caste, location, occupation, religion -- anything that meets the criteria. It is reasonable to take economic income levels as indicator of well-being. One can find the most backward segments of society by looking at average income/income distribution in census. These are the sections that maybe reserved for.

- Are reservations currently being misused?

An argument against reservations is that most of those availing the benefit don't need it. It is mostly the rich who avail it. This is a matter of implementation. Abuse a good idea doesn't mean it shouldn't be implemented. It should be, but it should also be supported by abuse prevention mechanisms.

Incase of reservations, this is technically easy. Just track the average income level of all availing reservation; marked difference between this and the community income suggest misuse.

- If reservations, then how much?

This will work out different for the two plausible justifications for reservations.

The first is true merit theory -- that the current performance indicators of the underprevileged doesn't reflect their true abilities. It is reasonable to assume, however, that over a period of few years of similar education or work, they will reflect their true potential.

The goal then should be to lower the bar for the underprevileged just enough so that the average last year or last semester performance of those admitted under reserved seats matches that of the rest. The reservation measure then could then be either this percentage of seats, as it is now, or the percentage marks "discounted" for the underprevileged.

We argued that a meritorous underprevileged student who has availed the benefit of reservation once, say to get admission into a college, should be be regarded similarly with the rest by graduation. He must not have the reservation option at higher level of education or for employment. Thus, reservations at higher education level and for employment don't seem to make much sense. This argument could be extended to restrict exercise of reservation benefit to just once per person or family.

The second argument for reservation suggests compromising on true merit for the upliftment for the underprevileged. This again could be measured by simple book-keeping. Measure the difference between family incomes before and after availing reservation. If this is higher for reserved for non-reserved, there is a net social gain. With lower merit, this difference decreases and eventually matches that of a well-off non-reserved quota student. That is the optimal reservation level.

This approach is not flawless. Policy is always macro. Even the most perfect policy design will look at the overall statistics and optimize the net gains. There will always be advantaged or disadvantaged. While it is difficult, I don't think there is any choice -- those suffering first hand due to reasonable policy changes will probably have to live with it.

So much for a model for reservations. I am quite liking these thoughts -- it will be cool if someone can actually do a solid conclusive data backed model on the issue. Its probably unfair on our part to expect our not-so-worthy politicians to do the same!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There have been a lot of discussions, talks, and opinions flying around about the reservation issue recently. I have witnessed many policy debates recently. They include Narmada dam issue recently to Outsourcing debate and Anti-war protests in the United States a couple of years ago. There has been something fundamental in all these that irks me, and that I will like to share.</p>
<p>We often form a very black or white opinion on an issue and then try to justify it. This is risky &#8212; trying to justify our stand, we often compromise on reason. I have seen many absurd arguments, both for or against reservation, in print or television media. They are often more of emotional outbursts that won&#8217;t pass the test of a logically coherent argument.</p>
<p>It is understandable that people get emotional and agitated on issue such as reservations. However, I don&#8217;t think emotions ever solve problems. If you feel strongly about something and I feel the exact opposite, it is difficult for us to agree &#8212; emotions often override our understanding and closes our mind. I think consensus is reached when different parties sit down, list out some basic assumptions about the issue, and work out a framework for using logic and data to use further conclusions. Then, one digs out that data, plugs that into the agreed upon framework, and agrees on whatever results.</p>
<p>I will now indulge in a similar thought experiment on reservations.</p>
<p>Lets begin with the basic assumptions of reservations:<br />
- There are some easily identifiable (or verifiable) underprevileged (economically or socially) groups of people.<br />
- Reservations are justified for these underprevileged groups on one of the following grounds:<br />
  - The underprevileged members had fewer or worse education opportunities and thus haven&#8217;t been able to perform on par with the rest. Their current performance is not a true indicator of their true aptitude and efforts; when given equal opportunities as the rest of the society, they will peform better than their current performance indicators. Therefore, selection critera must be relaxed for them. [True merit theory]<br />
  - Giving opportunities to anyone will improve his family condition. This improvement will be more for a family worse off than the rest of the society. Thus, it maybe better to compromise even on the true merit because of the net gain to the society. [Net worth theory]</p>
<p>The questions that are asked now are:</p>
<p>- Should we have reservations &#8212; are the present reservations justified?</p>
<p>This depends on for whom. The critera, atleast theoretically, could be gender, caste, location, occupation, religion &#8212; anything that meets the criteria. It is reasonable to take economic income levels as indicator of well-being. One can find the most backward segments of society by looking at average income/income distribution in census. These are the sections that maybe reserved for.</p>
<p>- Are reservations currently being misused?</p>
<p>An argument against reservations is that most of those availing the benefit don&#8217;t need it. It is mostly the rich who avail it. This is a matter of implementation. Abuse a good idea doesn&#8217;t mean it shouldn&#8217;t be implemented. It should be, but it should also be supported by abuse prevention mechanisms.</p>
<p>Incase of reservations, this is technically easy. Just track the average income level of all availing reservation; marked difference between this and the community income suggest misuse.</p>
<p>- If reservations, then how much?</p>
<p>This will work out different for the two plausible justifications for reservations.</p>
<p>The first is true merit theory &#8212; that the current performance indicators of the underprevileged doesn&#8217;t reflect their true abilities. It is reasonable to assume, however, that over a period of few years of similar education or work, they will reflect their true potential.</p>
<p>The goal then should be to lower the bar for the underprevileged just enough so that the average last year or last semester performance of those admitted under reserved seats matches that of the rest. The reservation measure then could then be either this percentage of seats, as it is now, or the percentage marks &#8220;discounted&#8221; for the underprevileged.</p>
<p>We argued that a meritorous underprevileged student who has availed the benefit of reservation once, say to get admission into a college, should be be regarded similarly with the rest by graduation. He must not have the reservation option at higher level of education or for employment. Thus, reservations at higher education level and for employment don&#8217;t seem to make much sense. This argument could be extended to restrict exercise of reservation benefit to just once per person or family.</p>
<p>The second argument for reservation suggests compromising on true merit for the upliftment for the underprevileged. This again could be measured by simple book-keeping. Measure the difference between family incomes before and after availing reservation. If this is higher for reserved for non-reserved, there is a net social gain. With lower merit, this difference decreases and eventually matches that of a well-off non-reserved quota student. That is the optimal reservation level.</p>
<p>This approach is not flawless. Policy is always macro. Even the most perfect policy design will look at the overall statistics and optimize the net gains. There will always be advantaged or disadvantaged. While it is difficult, I don&#8217;t think there is any choice &#8212; those suffering first hand due to reasonable policy changes will probably have to live with it.</p>
<p>So much for a model for reservations. I am quite liking these thoughts &#8212; it will be cool if someone can actually do a solid conclusive data backed model on the issue. Its probably unfair on our part to expect our not-so-worthy politicians to do the same!</p>
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		<title>By: KK</title>
		<link>http://indianeconomy.org/2006/05/20/reservations-about-reservations/#comment-4612</link>
		<dc:creator>KK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 May 2006 18:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianeconomy.org/?p=300#comment-4612</guid>
		<description>I quite like the quote by Mr Murthy (Infosys) - there is no sense of self respect left within the so called backward classes which still seem to yell and make themselves known as backward even after 50+ years of independence. How long do you intend to stay that way? did you know that your grandparents and parents had a free school, free college, free post graduation, that they received large chunks of money as scholarships (why did the government abuse this word?) which they spent on everything but their education  and then they were also given a job at the end of their academic term regardless of whether they actually studied? did you know that for every one of you getting a job just because you belong to a backward caste there are hundreds of hardworking students waiting in line only to be dissappointed by the lack of value and respect to meritocracy? did you know that there is a majority waiting in silent resentment over this injustice which may as well burst out? did you know where this is all going? invariably you will be identified as backward if this reservation policy goes ahead to implementation, invariably the population will start to recognize the importance of caste all over again and invariably the very thing that this reservation policy set out to address will be on the table as an even bigger issue!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quite like the quote by Mr Murthy (Infosys) - there is no sense of self respect left within the so called backward classes which still seem to yell and make themselves known as backward even after 50+ years of independence. How long do you intend to stay that way? did you know that your grandparents and parents had a free school, free college, free post graduation, that they received large chunks of money as scholarships (why did the government abuse this word?) which they spent on everything but their education  and then they were also given a job at the end of their academic term regardless of whether they actually studied? did you know that for every one of you getting a job just because you belong to a backward caste there are hundreds of hardworking students waiting in line only to be dissappointed by the lack of value and respect to meritocracy? did you know that there is a majority waiting in silent resentment over this injustice which may as well burst out? did you know where this is all going? invariably you will be identified as backward if this reservation policy goes ahead to implementation, invariably the population will start to recognize the importance of caste all over again and invariably the very thing that this reservation policy set out to address will be on the table as an even bigger issue!</p>
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