Comments on: The Politics Of Negotiating Climate Change http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/ Issues & insights Tue, 7 Oct 2008 04:10:41 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: prof.T.Shivaji Rao,Environmentalist http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-232785 prof.T.Shivaji Rao,Environmentalist Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:13:07 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-232785 Cloud seeding is the only means of augmenting water supplies to drought-prone people and Nature for ensuring their survival.Planning commission members,union Ministers and secretaries to Government of India are immersed in preventing cloud seeding that helps poor people and wild life and forests which help to sustain life systems.Most scientists do not know the uses of cloud seeding to augment water supplies by squeezing the clouds that have ten times more water than that contained by all fresh water sources on earth.Let intellectuals educate the central and state ministers and secretaries on cloud seeding by taking the example of China,thailand,Japan,Israil,Texas,and Australia.Let them study the book on cloud seeding authored by me which is available online at the web site: http://gitam.edu/old/www.gitam.edu/science/envstud/envr_achievements/English-Book.pdf For clarifications:E-mail:profshivajirao@hotmail.com Cloud seeding is the only means of augmenting water supplies to drought-prone people and Nature for ensuring their survival.Planning commission members,union Ministers and secretaries to Government of India are immersed in preventing cloud seeding that helps poor people and wild life and forests which help to sustain life systems.Most scientists do not know the uses of cloud seeding to augment water supplies by squeezing the clouds that have ten times more water than that contained by all fresh water sources on earth.Let intellectuals educate the central and state ministers and secretaries on cloud seeding by taking the example of China,thailand,Japan,Israil,Texas,and Australia.Let them study the book on cloud seeding authored by me which is available online at the web site:
http://gitam.edu/old/www.gitam.edu/science/envstud/envr_achievements/English-Book.pdf
For clarifications:E-mail:profshivajirao@hotmail.com

]]> By: Climate Change Challenge for the Poor at The Discomfort Zone http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-222716 Climate Change Challenge for the Poor at The Discomfort Zone Thu, 27 Sep 2007 07:31:13 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-222716 [...] Ambassador Dasgupta, in spite of his substantive insights on climate change policy negotiation, has mistaken ethics for politics. Any future agreement on climate change must confirm - not to the framework convention - but to what rich and poor countries agree to give and take. Mr. Dasgupta repeats the standard Indian line of “common but differentiated responsibility”, but the sad irony is that standing on a pedestal and reading the principles of the UNFCCC will neither solve the problem (of climate change) that threatens the poor, nor offer the poor any say in a solution that eventually develops. [...] [...] Ambassador Dasgupta, in spite of his substantive insights on climate change policy negotiation, has mistaken ethics for politics. Any future agreement on climate change must confirm - not to the framework convention - but to what rich and poor countries agree to give and take. Mr. Dasgupta repeats the standard Indian line of “common but differentiated responsibility”, but the sad irony is that standing on a pedestal and reading the principles of the UNFCCC will neither solve the problem (of climate change) that threatens the poor, nor offer the poor any say in a solution that eventually develops. [...]

]]> By: prof.T.Shivaji Rao,Environmentalist http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-208150 prof.T.Shivaji Rao,Environmentalist Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:48:24 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-208150 Your comment such as"Shouldn’t we be addressing the root causes of climate change instead of fire-fighting the symptoms like drought ? " is very correct.But when almost all the Prime ministers and Presidents of various countries have desisted from donning the roles of statesmen in preference to opting to be selfish business men with their tunnel vision restricted to their terms of reelection to office to retain it at any cost and for ther purpose plan development activities that promote their short-term slush money acquisitionmethods through forest destruction under the guise of leasing out forest clearance licences for conservation,how can any one of theUN agencies who know the truth prevent this naked rape of Nature that inevitably makes Nature take vengence against mankind by reordering its own manipulative capabilities of Global Warming with its ramifications in the forms of extremes of climate ,resulting in Droughts,Floods,extreme heat,melting of Glaciers,desertification and damage to the healthy eco-systems?While macro-economics tries to safe-guard global interests,micro-economics in its local settings under short-sighted politicians,politicians and bureaucrats is going to wreck havoc to man and Nature,particularly at a time when the educated people in Schools ,colleges and Universities have given up their social responsibility to protect the Environment as envisaged by people's leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and environmentalist prime ministers like Indira Gandhi who amended Indian Constitution to include Art.51A[g] to make it the fundamental duty of every citizen to protect the Air,water,forests and wild life and to develop compassion for all living creatures.Hence it is the people who are failing to discharge their duties as per constitution and hence whom shall we blame for the growings ills in the fields of Environment and development,when development activities are planned not on ecologically sound -lines but only with the sole objective of making money at any cost by the people in the seats of power. Let the intellectuals take a positive role to debate on the environmental impacts of all major development projects so that they will not become counter-productive in the long run and thereby promote poverty,sickness,unemployment and social unrest that ultimately lead to terrorism and block world peace which is essential for sustainable development of man and Nature.In this context,Cloud seeding is the only weapon that is used by China by employing 37,000 technicians to extract 66 to 65 billion cubic meters of additional annual rainfall,equivalent to the annual flow in a major river like Krishna river in South India and that too at the cheapest cost of U.S.$0.02 per cubic meter.I feel that apathy to promote cloud seeding by Indian Meteorologists,Bureaucrats,Ministers at the central and state levels amounts to their abetting with vested business lobby who profit from people's miseries as sketched out by a noted Journalist,P.Sainath,Rural Editor of THE HINDU. prof.T.Shivaji Rao, Director,centre for Environmental studies, Gotam University,Visakhapatnam.India.and Expert,cloud seeding project,Government of A.P.state Your comment such as”Shouldn’t we be addressing the root causes of climate change instead of fire-fighting the symptoms like drought ? ” is very correct.But when almost all the Prime ministers and Presidents of various countries have desisted from donning the roles of statesmen in preference to opting to be selfish business men with their tunnel vision restricted to their terms of reelection to office to retain it at any cost and for ther purpose plan development activities that promote their short-term slush money acquisitionmethods through forest destruction under the guise of leasing out forest clearance licences for conservation,how can any one of theUN agencies who know the truth prevent this naked rape of Nature that inevitably makes Nature take vengence against mankind by reordering its own manipulative capabilities of Global Warming with its ramifications in the forms of extremes of climate ,resulting in Droughts,Floods,extreme heat,melting of Glaciers,desertification and damage to the healthy eco-systems?While macro-economics tries to safe-guard global interests,micro-economics in its local settings under short-sighted politicians,politicians and bureaucrats is going to wreck havoc to man and Nature,particularly at a time when the educated people in Schools ,colleges and Universities have given up their social responsibility to protect the Environment as envisaged by people’s leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and environmentalist prime ministers like Indira Gandhi who amended Indian Constitution to include Art.51A[g] to make it the fundamental duty of every citizen to protect the Air,water,forests and wild life and to develop compassion for all living creatures.Hence it is the people who are failing to discharge their duties as per constitution and hence whom shall we blame for the growings ills in the fields of Environment and development,when development activities are planned not on ecologically sound -lines but only with the sole objective of making money at any cost by the people in the seats of power.
Let the intellectuals take a positive role to debate on the environmental impacts of all major development projects so that they will not become counter-productive in the long run and thereby promote poverty,sickness,unemployment and social unrest that ultimately lead to terrorism and block world peace which is essential for sustainable development of man and Nature.In this context,Cloud seeding is the only weapon that is used by China by employing 37,000 technicians to extract 66 to 65 billion cubic meters of additional annual rainfall,equivalent to the annual flow in a major river like Krishna river in South India and that too at the cheapest cost of U.S.$0.02 per cubic meter.I feel that apathy to promote cloud seeding by Indian Meteorologists,Bureaucrats,Ministers at the central and state levels amounts to their abetting with vested business lobby who profit from people’s miseries as sketched out by a noted Journalist,P.Sainath,Rural Editor of THE HINDU.
prof.T.Shivaji Rao,
Director,centre for Environmental studies,
Gotam University,Visakhapatnam.India.and
Expert,cloud seeding project,Government of A.P.state

]]> By: World is Green : Business Strategy and Sustainability | The Politics of Climate Change « http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204714 World is Green : Business Strategy and Sustainability | The Politics of Climate Change « Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:38:09 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204714 [...] The Politics of Climate Change August 15th, 2007 — Suhit Anantula Dweep at the Indian Economy blog points to this article on FT by Eric Posner and Cass Sunstein. Although most nations now consider climate change a serious problem, they cannot agree on how to tackle it. [...] [...] The Politics of Climate Change August 15th, 2007 — Suhit Anantula Dweep at the Indian Economy blog points to this article on FT by Eric Posner and Cass Sunstein. Although most nations now consider climate change a serious problem, they cannot agree on how to tackle it. [...]

]]> By: Chaitanya http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204587 Chaitanya Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:10:49 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204587 Prof Shivaji Rao, Glad to have you on this blog. So you are suggesting cloud seeding as one of the measures to adapt from possible drought situations caused by climate change. fair enough. If push comes to shove, i have no doubt India will adopt this kind of weather manipulations to keep the industrial system going a little bit longer. There is nothing radical in that. We already live in a techo-centric society. And our technocrats are only eager to adopt measures from "advanced" countries. What i would like to ask you, a veteran on environmental issues, is, how long can the planet take this kind of manipulation of ecosystems without causing complete ecological collapse ? Iam not suggesting cloud seeding itself will cause the eco collapse. But surely cloud seeding is part of the philosophy of continued engineering of nature, to suit our interests. Shooting silver iodide from rocket launchers, to cause rain ? To ensure clear skies on Olympic ceremony day ? There is something disturbing in that picture, that i can't quite put into words. As you already know, we already massively manipulate naturally evolved systems to the point of *genetic* engineering. Are humans better engineers than Nature ? Isn't climate change a hint for us to relook at our strategy with respect to economy-ecology interaction ? Shouldn't we be addressing the root causes of climate change instead of fire-fighting the symptoms like drought ? Prof Shivaji Rao, Glad to have you on this blog.

So you are suggesting cloud seeding as one of the measures to adapt from possible drought situations caused by climate change. fair enough. If push comes to shove, i have no doubt India will adopt this kind of weather manipulations to keep the industrial system going a little bit longer. There is nothing radical in that. We already live in a techo-centric society. And our technocrats are only eager to adopt measures from “advanced” countries.

What i would like to ask you, a veteran on environmental issues, is, how long can the planet take this kind of manipulation of ecosystems without causing complete ecological collapse ? Iam not suggesting cloud seeding itself will cause the eco collapse. But surely cloud seeding is part of the philosophy of continued engineering of nature, to suit our interests. Shooting silver iodide from rocket launchers, to cause rain ? To ensure clear skies on Olympic ceremony day ? There is something disturbing in that picture, that i can’t quite put into words. As you already know, we already massively manipulate naturally evolved systems to the point of *genetic* engineering. Are humans better engineers than Nature ?

Isn’t climate change a hint for us to relook at our strategy with respect to economy-ecology interaction ? Shouldn’t we be addressing the root causes of climate change instead of fire-fighting the symptoms like drought ?

]]> By: prof.T.shivaji Rao,Environmentalist http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204290 prof.T.shivaji Rao,Environmentalist Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:37:40 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-204290 The climate Change is already there and it is going to increase day by day and its consequences to India according to Nitin Desai,secretary-general,World Summit on Sustainable Development,are very devastating.It is said that due to the accelerated melting of Glaciers in the Himalayas,River Ganges will face extreme floods for a short time while water scarcity will during july-september will cause drought that will cause unbearable misery for 50 crores of people and 37 percent of agriculture. It is a pity,the World Bank suggests further investment of $1500 billion annually by the poor countries to tackle the problems of climate Change. In Australia and China,almost all the Meteorological Experts have recently organised international conferences on how to tackle the impacts of emerging global warming and arrived at an unanimous decision that cloud seeding is the most potent weapon to fight the recurring droughts and Global warming impacts. But in India,the prime minister and the members of the planning commissionprefer to don the role of King Nero who reported to be fiddling while Rome was on fire.The secretaries to the Central and state Governments who revel at being not at all accountable for their actions opt to be silent spectators because the elected representatives in parliament and state legislatures will not be interested in Questioning the actions of the Ministers and the Bureaucrats why they refuse to copy the examples of China in adopting cloud seeding to save the farmers and national economy.I sncerely feel that if rural poverty is to be eradicated,the easiest way is to make available more water to the poor people because wter is the BLUE GOLD,an economic resourcefoundation over which the edifice of public health and welfare can be strongly built. since we are using only the conventional surface and ground water resources which are not only dwindling day day but are also getting polluted to become detrimental public use,we are spreading poverty,unemployment,disease and diseconomy in the society . I thought the only way to serve the rural poor is to tap more water from the clouds in the sky as has been proposed in USA in 1962 and continued in 40 countries since 40 years. The success story of cloud seeding in China is presented in Thwe Hindu dated 14-6-2007 by MsPallavi .Aiyer,the Hindu correspondent from Beijing.Unfortunately no body seems to to have read it.http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007061402041100.htm&date=2007/06/14/&prd=th& I have written a book on cloud seeding to fight the droughts in India,available free online at the web:http://www.gitam.edu/old/www.gitam.edu/science/envstud/English-Book.pdf kidly send any suggestions on this subject prof.T.Shivaji Rao. Director,centre for environment,Gitam engineering college,visakhapatnam. Expert,cloud seeding project of government of Andhra pradesh.E-mail;profshivajirao@hotmail.com The climate Change is already there and it is going to increase day by day and its consequences to India according to Nitin Desai,secretary-general,World Summit on Sustainable Development,are very devastating.It is said that due to the accelerated melting of Glaciers in the Himalayas,River Ganges will face extreme floods for a short time while water scarcity will during july-september will cause drought that will cause unbearable misery for 50 crores of people and 37 percent of agriculture.
It is a pity,the World Bank suggests further investment of $1500 billion annually by the poor countries to tackle the problems of climate Change.
In Australia and China,almost all the Meteorological Experts have recently organised international conferences on how to tackle the impacts of emerging global warming and arrived at an unanimous decision that cloud seeding is the most potent weapon to fight the recurring droughts and Global warming impacts.
But in India,the prime minister and the members of the planning commissionprefer to don the role of King Nero who reported to be fiddling while Rome was on fire.The secretaries to the Central and state Governments who revel at being not at all accountable for their actions opt to be silent spectators because the elected representatives in parliament and state legislatures will not be interested in Questioning the actions of the Ministers and the Bureaucrats why they refuse to copy the examples of China in adopting cloud seeding to save the farmers and national economy.I sncerely feel that if rural poverty is to be eradicated,the easiest way is to make available more water to the poor people because wter is the BLUE GOLD,an economic resourcefoundation over which the edifice of public health and welfare can be strongly built.

since we are using only the conventional surface and ground water resources which are not only dwindling day day but are also getting polluted to become detrimental public use,we are spreading poverty,unemployment,disease and diseconomy in the society .

I thought the only way to serve the rural poor is to tap more water from the clouds in the sky as has been proposed in USA in 1962 and continued in 40 countries since 40 years.

The success story of cloud seeding in China is presented in Thwe Hindu dated 14-6-2007 by MsPallavi .Aiyer,the Hindu correspondent from Beijing.Unfortunately no body seems to to have read it.http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2007061402041100.htm&date=2007/06/14/&prd=th&

I have written a book on cloud seeding to fight the droughts in India,available free online at the web:http://www.gitam.edu/old/www.gitam.edu/science/envstud/English-Book.pdf

kidly send any suggestions on this subject
prof.T.Shivaji Rao.
Director,centre for environment,Gitam engineering college,visakhapatnam.
Expert,cloud seeding project of government of Andhra pradesh.E-mail;profshivajirao@hotmail.com

]]> By: Prakash http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203805 Prakash Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:13:16 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203805 Hi All, Very interesting conversation. the basic question you ask is - How can India which desperately needs climate change action take leadership in these matters without damaging itself? My 2 cents worth speculation on the issue. Adaptive policies - 1. legalise weather and environmental futures speculation. legalise speculation on rainfall amounts, sea levels and temperatures at various points, glacier melting, forest cover, etc. A well developed satta market (or idea futures market, as Robin Hanson calls them) on these issues will provide valuable information today, and incentivise the collection of more accurate data tomorrow. Tomorrow's satellites could be funded by firms seeking to make a killing on the rain forecasts of next year. Potential participants in this market can be consumer goods firms, or retail firms whose businesses are connected very intimately to immediate consumer demand. We need better data, reliable data, better models. So, once we have the better data, we can predict climate change effects better and prepare for whatever pyscho-mother-nature is going to dish out. 2. Better urban planning - Since we will most assuredly either run out of the abuses we can heap on the atmosphere, or run out of oil before that, we need to prepare for a future without oil. design good public transport. 3. Leverage IT to increase telecommuting. 4. Seriously investigate into Terra Prata / biochar. Negotiation strategies 1. Insist on complete models that take into account every fringe, even kooky concept of the reason for global warming, including the cosmic rays stuff (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece ). 2. Insist on models that take into account the medevial warm period and everything that the global warming deniers play out.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MWP_and_LIA_in_IPCC_reports) Basically, Try to check, recheck and triple check everything just to make sure the science unambiguously points to anthropogenic global warming. 3. Openly advocate reversible geo-engineering in preference to greenhouse gas emission reduction. ( putting particulate matter in high atmosphere, seeding cloud banks, increasing the earth's albedo, creating algal blooms and then skimming them off). the advantage with this process is that we can manage with a slightly higher tax the price that we pay. it need not be as severe as global green house gas reduction would be to us. 4. If all the above fail, then we need to insist on per-capita basis of green house gas emission and not overall quotas per nation. That will be the only straw left to cling on. Hi All,

Very interesting conversation.

the basic question you ask is - How can India which desperately needs climate change action take leadership in these matters without damaging itself?

My 2 cents worth speculation on the issue.

Adaptive policies -

1. legalise weather and environmental futures speculation. legalise speculation on rainfall amounts, sea levels and temperatures at various points, glacier melting, forest cover, etc. A well developed satta market (or idea futures market, as Robin Hanson calls them) on these issues will provide valuable information today, and incentivise the collection of more accurate data tomorrow. Tomorrow’s satellites could be funded by firms seeking to make a killing on the rain forecasts of next year. Potential participants in this market can be consumer goods firms, or retail firms whose businesses are connected very intimately to immediate consumer demand.
We need better data, reliable data, better models.

So, once we have the better data, we can predict climate change effects better and prepare for whatever pyscho-mother-nature is going to dish out.

2. Better urban planning - Since we will most assuredly either run out of the abuses we can heap on the atmosphere, or run out of oil before that, we need to prepare for a future without oil. design good public transport.

3. Leverage IT to increase telecommuting.

4. Seriously investigate into Terra Prata / biochar.

Negotiation strategies

1. Insist on complete models that take into account every fringe, even kooky concept of the reason for global warming, including the cosmic rays stuff (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece ).
2. Insist on models that take into account the medevial warm period and everything that the global warming deniers play out.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MWP_and_LIA_in_IPCC_reports)
Basically, Try to check, recheck and triple check everything just to make sure the science unambiguously points to anthropogenic global warming.

3. Openly advocate reversible geo-engineering in preference to greenhouse gas emission reduction. ( putting particulate matter in high atmosphere, seeding cloud banks, increasing the earth’s albedo, creating algal blooms and then skimming them off). the advantage with this process is that we can manage with a slightly higher tax the price that we pay. it need not be as severe as global green house gas reduction would be to us.

4. If all the above fail, then we need to insist on per-capita basis of green house gas emission and not overall quotas per nation. That will be the only straw left to cling on.

]]> By: Gurmeet http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203533 Gurmeet Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:28:59 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203533 Renjith, I am running out of time, so I will just quote- "But in the history of trade-offs, never has there been a better one than trading a tiny amount of global warming for a massive amount of global prosperity. Earth got about 0.7 degrees Celsius warmer in the 20th century while it increased its GDP by 1,800 percent, by one estimate. How much of that 0.7 degrees can be laid at the feet of that 1,800 percent is unknowable, but let’s stipulate that all of the warming was the result of our prosperity and that this warming is in fact indisputably bad (which is hardly obvious). That’s still an amazing bargain. Life expectancies in the United States increased from about 47 years to about 77 years. Literacy, medicine, leisure and even, in many respects, the environment have improved mightily over the course of the 20th century, at least in the prosperous West. Given the option of getting another 1,800 percent richer in exchange for another 0.7 degrees warmer, I’d take the heat in a heartbeat. Of course, warming might get more expensive for us (and we might get a lot richer than 1,800 percent too). " Source- http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmJiZDEyYzkxYWE0OWYxMWY4Y2ZjYzI2YmNmOGExMDE= So lets get rich at full speed and then we can have he luxury and leisure to worry about if anthropogenic global warming is real and/or such a bad thing. Prashant, you are in luck. No tooting this time. Renjith,
I am running out of time, so I will just quote-

“But in the history of trade-offs, never has there been a better one than trading a tiny amount of global warming for a massive amount of global prosperity.

Earth got about 0.7 degrees Celsius warmer in the 20th century while it increased its GDP by 1,800 percent, by one estimate. How much of that 0.7 degrees can be laid at the feet of that 1,800 percent is unknowable, but let’s stipulate that all of the warming was the result of our prosperity and that this warming is in fact indisputably bad (which is hardly obvious).

That’s still an amazing bargain. Life expectancies in the United States increased from about 47 years to about 77 years. Literacy, medicine, leisure and even, in many respects, the environment have improved mightily over the course of the 20th century, at least in the prosperous West.

Given the option of getting another 1,800 percent richer in exchange for another 0.7 degrees warmer, I’d take the heat in a heartbeat. Of course, warming might get more expensive for us (and we might get a lot richer than 1,800 percent too). ”

Source-
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmJiZDEyYzkxYWE0OWYxMWY4Y2ZjYzI2YmNmOGExMDE=

So lets get rich at full speed and then we can have he luxury and leisure to worry about if anthropogenic global warming is real and/or such a bad thing.

Prashant,
you are in luck. No tooting this time.

]]> By: Gurmeet http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203527 Gurmeet Fri, 10 Aug 2007 23:03:19 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203527 Nice to be getting attention. That Co2 is considered a pollutant is of course absurd- though that absurdity is lost on some savants.A pollutant is(according to a dictionary)-"Waste matter that contaminates the water or air or soil" So what is the criteria for labeling it a pollutant- 1)The US Supreme Court said so? 2)It contributes to Global Warming? As to(1), scientific matters are not decided by a majority in a courtroom(in this case the decision was a narrow 5-4).So what if the court decision had been the reverse? Would then those who think that CO2 is a pollutant stop believing so? As to(2), if contribution to GW is the criteria then there are plenty of other things that can be labeled as pollutants-e.g. Water vapor(which has a much stronger green house effect than CO2),deforestation, other land change use, methane from the farts of the cattle(whose contribution to GW is estimated to be as much as that of all cars put together). And since when is contributing to GW considered pollution and what for? You all are debasing the meaning of pollution. So let's consider evaporation from lakes and seas as pollution. Let's have an emissions policy for the cattle. Let the cows purchase fart-credits before they emit anything. The clamor to call CO2 a pollutant is simply a ploy, a device to be able to demonise and to regulate it -it passes no scientific muster. An interesting primer on Massachusetts vs. the EPA (written before the decision) - http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lewis200504080955.asp Prashant, what do you have against gratuitous? So just to bug you once more- http://libertynewscentral.blogspot.com/ Nice to be getting attention.

That Co2 is considered a pollutant is of course absurd- though that absurdity is lost on some savants.A pollutant is(according to a dictionary)-”Waste matter that contaminates the water or air or soil”

So what is the criteria for labeling it a pollutant-
1)The US Supreme Court said so?
2)It contributes to Global Warming?

As to(1), scientific matters are not decided by a majority in a courtroom(in this case the decision was a narrow 5-4).So what if the court decision had been the reverse? Would then those who think that CO2 is a pollutant stop believing so?

As to(2), if contribution to GW is the criteria then there are plenty of other things that can be labeled as pollutants-e.g. Water vapor(which has a much stronger green house effect than CO2),deforestation, other land change use, methane from the farts of the cattle(whose contribution to GW is estimated to be as much as that of all cars put together). And since when is contributing to GW considered pollution and what for? You all are debasing the meaning of pollution.

So let’s consider evaporation from lakes and seas as pollution. Let’s have an emissions policy for the cattle. Let the cows purchase fart-credits before they emit anything.

The clamor to call CO2 a pollutant is simply a ploy, a device to be able to demonise and to regulate it -it passes no scientific muster.

An interesting primer on Massachusetts vs. the EPA (written before the decision) -
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lewis200504080955.asp

Prashant,
what do you have against gratuitous? So just to bug you once more-
http://libertynewscentral.blogspot.com/

]]> By: Dweep http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203462 Dweep Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:41:22 +0000 http://indianeconomy.org/2007/08/06/the-politics-of-negotiating-climate-change/#comment-203462 Gurmeet, I will support Renjith's point above. At least in the US context, the US Supreme Court has established in a landmark ruling of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_v._Environmental_Protection_Agency" rel="nofollow">Massachusetts vs. the EPA</a> that CO2 is a pollutant. For some history, you can look <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0829-02.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Gurmeet, I will support Renjith’s point above. At least in the US context, the US Supreme Court has established in a landmark ruling of Massachusetts vs. the EPA that CO2 is a pollutant.

For some history, you can look here.

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